New member needs advice from the AC experts. :)

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tourmax
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Re: New member needs advice from the AC experts. :)

Postby tourmax » Thu Jun 25, 2020 5:32 pm

bohica2xo wrote:Well here in the US we still have R12 on the shelf. 134a will be in inventory for a LONG time.

This is not canuckistan, where the eco weenies always get their way. I can still buy R500 if I want it.



I have no idea where “canuckistan” is, I do know where CANADA Is. Lets leave the childish name calling to the politicians shall we? They seem to be good enough at it for all of us....

You might still be able to buy r12, but its time is limited. Very limited. Read your usa “clean air act” and you’ll see that production is banned. Cfc’s by 2015, hfc’s by 2030:

“In addition, EPA must ensure that Class I chemicals be phased out on a schedule similar to that specified in the Montreal Protocol -- CFCs, halons, and carbon tetrachloride by 2000; methyl chloroform by 2002 -- but with more stringent interim reductions. Class II chemicals (HCFCs) will be phased out by 2030. Regulations for Class I chemicals will be required within 10 months, and Class II chemical regulations will be required by December 31,1999.”

https://www.epa.gov/clean-air-act-overv ... y-title-vi

Only countries still producing it are the “asian outsiders”, who don’t comply with any international agreements. Even if they do sign on to them. Bad actors all around...

So while you may still be able to buy it, the supply tou have is all you have. Once gone, its gone.

The biggest problem with cfc was in aerosols. Might get away with having them longer in a seal automotive system.

But, I’ve got no interest in digging into usa legislation any further. Means nothing to me.

As to “eco-weenies”, whatever. I may not like our environmental laws, but I do understand why we have them. USA can do whatever they wish with regards to laws and the environment, not my row to hoe...
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Cusser
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Re: New member needs advice from the AC experts. :)

Postby Cusser » Fri Jun 26, 2020 6:09 am

tourmax wrote:
bohica2xo wrote:You might still be able to buy r12, but its time is limited. Very limited. Read your usa “clean air act” and you’ll see that production is banned. Cfc’s by 2015, hfc’s by 2030


Production is/will be banned, but there is still more than enough to go around. There's actually plenty of R-12, as few older vehicles st

Right now some home HVAC companies are trying to scare folks into replacing perfectly good home AC units because R-22 is no longer manufactured. But I'd guess over 95% of the R-22 gets recovered and recycled, those units don't leak as often as auto systems, and lack of R-22 will not cause any units to be removed from service.
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bohica2xo
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Re: New member needs advice from the AC experts. :)

Postby bohica2xo » Fri Jun 26, 2020 1:49 pm

Cusser:

The uninformed simply have no idea of the scale of the refrigerant business. Refrigerant is mostly recycled - well except for driveway pirate mechanics that vent it.

The number of tons of R12 manufactured before the ban is huge. MVAC was a tiny corner of the consumption. Medical Inhalers used more of the stuff.

134a is used on a massive scale as well. I recovered a chiller back in 2019 for replacement. The recovered charge was 2,220 pounds of 134a One chiller. A production machine, that the manufacturer had a part number for. They likely made hundreds of them, perhaps thousands.

I am still recovering R500 from residential cooling units. R500 left the new machinery marketplace a long time ago. I SELL the recovered material to a recycler. As long as there is profit potential in the material there will be recycling.

I replaced the two 5 ton R22 units on my roof a year ago. Recycled the R22 of course. The 410A units that replaced them have HUGE condensers. The operational savings come from the inverter drives on the compressor and fans. But the "efficiency" resulted in a nice rebate.
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Cusser
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Re: New member needs advice from the AC experts. :)

Postby Cusser » Fri Jun 26, 2020 2:31 pm

bohica2xo wrote:Cusser:

The uninformed simply have no idea of the scale of the refrigerant business. Refrigerant is mostly recycled - well except for driveway pirate mechanics that vent it.


My experience - which is small - is that automotive shops will credit one for the amount of refrigerant (either R-12 or R134a) that is in your system. For example: if your system contains 18 oz. and the shop pulls that out to do a repair, and the system requires 32 oz. refrigerant, then you only pay for 14 oz. refrigerant.

But HVAC (for example, for a home unit repair such as condenser or compressor replacement) will pull out the refrigerant yet will charge you for the total amount of refrigerant the system requires, apparently "pocketing" what the existing refrigerant will sell for to the next customer. Is that true or common?
Al9
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Re: New member needs advice from the AC experts. :)

Postby Al9 » Fri Jun 26, 2020 3:02 pm

Where i live (Euro country), it's a fixed fee depending upon the car's size. They will use a RRR station and will hopefully do a good enough vacuum and then fill up to spec. For a small kei car like mine, with 1 pound of refrigerant inside, about 67 bucks actually in large shops. Small shops? About 112 bucks. R-134A. Don't even want to think about R-1234yf related services. R-12? Forget about it.

I once confronted a shop owner over the fact that he charged me the fixed fee even though my system had half the nominal charge inside. Reason? Pure overheads, and nothing else. The guy just has to keep the shop going somehow.
As a side note, i would like to use expletives to better convey how this guy seriously messed my system up (left a rubber hose rubbing against a metal line, ended up damaging the AC clutch harness), and i solemnly swear he'll never ever touch my air con again.

Not enough? You also get technicians who seemingly overlook leaking schrader cores. You can guess what happened, and i'm now keeping a number of spare cores among my stuff.
Dougflas
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Re: New member needs advice from the AC experts. :)

Postby Dougflas » Fri Jun 26, 2020 4:48 pm

<<But HVAC (for example, for a home unit repair such as condenser or compressor replacement) will pull out the refrigerant yet will charge you for the total amount of refrigerant the system requires, apparently "pocketing" what the existing refrigerant will sell for to the next customer. Is that true or common?>>

They are not pocketing the refrigerant. A home type AC unit's refrigerant also contains oil that is not separated as is MVAC. This refrigerant and oil is usually burnt rendering it non reusable. If someone replaces a compressor, new refrigerant, drier, sometimes contactor and start components are also replaced. The condenser coil is also cleaned. If a leak in the condensing unit is repaired, the refrigerant is recovered to a point; extra new refrigerant is added to the system. We usually leave a small amount in the system because we do not want to recover refrigerant that also contains atmosphere sucked in by the recovery machine thru the leak.
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bohica2xo
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Re: New member needs advice from the AC experts. :)

Postby bohica2xo » Fri Jun 26, 2020 8:22 pm

Cusser:

HVAC has it's own set of circumstances, as Douglas has pointed out. When you recover a system that has a burnt up compressor - you get a full charge, but it is contaminated. Or you recover a leaky system for a repair, and get a few ounces.

The R500 systems around here are still running. When they went to demolish a group of old condos I got a lot of clean R500 out of the deal. The young whiz kids thought a decommissioning job was a loser. Those old units had a lot of copper in them.

When you recover scrap refrigerant with oils, acids and air in it, you get scrap prices for it. The recycling process is fractional distillation, and the recovered product that is resold is as good as virgin product.

That is not to say that some HVAC techs are all angels. Recharging a system with a slow leak in August - and getting $80 a pound for R22 has happened. Any time some outfit claims they can snake your drains, replace your water heater & fix your A/C... you should probably get a second bid.
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Cusser
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Re: New member needs advice from the AC experts. :)

Postby Cusser » Fri Jun 26, 2020 8:50 pm

Thanks for explaining.
TheGoldenCheetah
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Re: New member needs advice from the AC experts. :)

Postby TheGoldenCheetah » Mon Jun 29, 2020 4:20 pm

Wanted to update my thread - I appreciate the advice and responses from everyone. I'm gonna give 'Tim' a call as recommended by bohica2xo to figure out what kind of compressor and condensor to buy. I also need to first talk to the shop that's gonna install the parts, I want to get some idea of what all will be involved. I'll update the thread as I get more info. :)
TheGoldenCheetah
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Re: New member needs advice from the AC experts. :)

Postby TheGoldenCheetah » Tue Jul 07, 2020 9:08 am

Another update: I've found the shop that's gonna do the work, they maintain my wife's '15 X1 and we've been very happy with them and I found out they do complete AC work as well. They have a very professional operation. Next is to call site sponsor Tim's outfit to see what my options are. I'm firm on buying a new compressor unless they tell me they personally remanufacture the ones they sell. In any case I'll probably buy a kit of some sort from them, and then have everything installed very soon. :)
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