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BLOWN JEEP ENGINE

gregg on Sun April 03, 2005 9:29 AM User is offline

Year: 1995
Make: JEEP
Model: WRANGLER
Engine Size: 4CLY

My nephew just bought 95 jeep wrangler from dealer who sells only jeeps. It has about 80,000miles on it. After about a week he called and said there was ticking noise. Unfortunately he was unable to get the car to me and a week later the engine was trashed. Loud grinding and knocking noises...undrivable.
Now the seller says to have oil /filter changed in about 2 weeks...he had it done after about 10 days.
The dealer said something to the effect that there was an engine cleaner...I'm assuming flush of some kind...
and that was why he was to have the oil changed.
The guys that opened the engine said something about spun rod bearing and some block damage due to debris...sounds like its really shot all to hell.

Couple questions .....anybody ever heard of an oil flush that is to be kept in and engine for 2 weeks....the ones ive seen said run engine for 15 mins at idle and then do oil change...?.

Did this guy put something into to the oil to quiet down a know problem or did he just screw up and put the flush in the motor and let my nephew drive it til it blew?

The dealer had purchased a 90 day warranty for the kid....I'm sure his mother actually paid for it in some round about way.....so now the warranty company is saying they are shipping a used engine from NYC....we are in Dallas..and that is a different engine.....this whole thing stinks to high heaven!!!

I told my sister the the seller ought to take the vehicle back or fix it for free and let him deal with the warranty company.........at least thats what I'd be telling the dealer if it was me......

Would apprec any ideas....

Thanks....Gregg



MikeH on Sun April 03, 2005 11:55 AM User is offline

Unfortunately for your nephew the engine now probably needs to be rebuilt. All engine cleaners are used only to clean the pathways that the oil travels thru the block. Engine cleaners do not provide protection/lubrication under normal running conditions as they force oil away from metal hot spots hence their cleaning action. The surface tension between bearing and main/cam is fragile at best and is always on the verge of colapse. Oil does not want to stay there. That is why there are holes in the piston rod so that as the rod moves thru the oil in the pan, it forces oil thru the hole and into the bearing. If the dealer left the cleaner in, then the dealer needs to 1. rebuild the engine or 2. provide a new/rebuilt replacement. Good luck.

NickD on Sun April 03, 2005 2:19 PM User is offline

I flush my engine with every oil change, but with one quart of oil that I regularly use. Wasting this quart helps to clear up all that crap in the bottom of the pan. From all the TSB's I have read that doesn't include Chrysler products, no OE recommends the use of these commercial engine flushers.

Is this Jeep dealer a new vehicle dealer or does he just deals in used cars? Met some very strange used car dealers and tend to stay away from them. Most the stuff they get is what the new car dealers don't want to fool with at the local auctions.

It would take a lot of new oil and only lightly idling the engine to get all of that flush out of there, saying to leave that stuff in for even a short drive around the block is insane let along a week. Crazy.

gregg on Sun April 03, 2005 7:02 PM User is offline

Mike and Nick...I think your both right....I had never heard of keeping flush in for more than 15 mins at idle..per the instructions on the ones I have see.

As a side note...worked with and experienced aircraft mechanic and when he changed oil in his car
he would drain the oil then add 4 qts of mineral spirits and 1 qt new oil..run it for 10 -15 mins
change filter and add new oil.......I remember we did this for years and never had a problem with any
of our engines internally. Probably about what the commercial flushed do.

Thanks for your inputs

This was a used only Jeep dealer.....thinks most cars from auctions....I didnt think the whole Jeep idea was good in the 1st place for a 17yr old kid. But I dont make the decisions......u pay a pretty penny for those vehicles! And doesnt seem like price goes down with age...sometimes goes up!!!

I agree with Mike ..I think my sister should put the responsibilty for getting the engine changed back on the dealer....let him deal with the warranty company.

NickD on Mon April 04, 2005 6:55 AM User is offline

I would take it back and get every penny she paid for it back. Way too many cars out there for sale and not even worth the effort. From the quality of the mechanics working in these used car places around here, wouldn't trust them to check the air in my tires let alone tackle an engine changing job. Can see nothing but problems. I am amused as to how one used car dealer will try to screw another used car dealer, let alone a customer.

MikeH on Mon April 04, 2005 2:08 PM User is offline

Gregg, your airplane guy that did a flush every time he changed it - wellllllllllll. Depending on the brand, not necessary. There are oils like Pennszoil, Royal Triton, Phillips 66, Quaker State, that have a high paraffin content. That means that they tend to collect dirt and the resulting "crud' winds up in every crack and crevice in your engine where oil can go. On the flip side, Castroil and Valvoline are low paraffin oils and hence keep the engine much cleaner. High paraffin oils allow shellac (from buring the fuel) to build up on piston walls/rings which eventually affects performance but you almost never have an oil leak using them. The shellac buildup means that piston walls get scored but with the high paraffin content the abrasions are never revealed as they are constantly filled in by the paraffin (the original design intent). With low paraffin oils that constantly carry away contaminents to the oil filter the engine wears less but the oil filter must be changed with every oil change to really keep the engine clean. The paraffin deal is why you can't replace Pennsoil with Catroil after about 30K miles. The Castroil carries away the paraffin and you could very possible end up with an oil burner. No more shellac coated cylinder walls allowing oil to seap into the combustion chamber to be burned.

NickD on Mon April 04, 2005 3:12 PM User is offline

I don't feel that todays engines even require a flush, not like the pre-PVC days with that infamous breather pipe. The high mileage engines I have taken apart today were almost as clean as a new engine. Not so back then, that breather would suck up so much road dust that the valves wouldn't close due to debris buildup in the valve covers.

There was some reason why that used car guy dumped in flush, maybe to cover up another problem hoping in some strange way, the flush would cure it.

We use to use #1 fuel oil back then with one quart of oil and idle the engine for about ten minutes in an attempt to clean it up, but that was back then. The valve covers had to be removed and attacked with a shovel to get all that debris buildup out.

gregg on Tue April 05, 2005 9:21 AM User is offline

Nick I thinks ur right in this Jeep guy was trying to cover something up and I advised my sister to
try and get the guy to take it back and refund her money. I went to the guys "showroom" where he had about 2 dozen jeeps...warehouse setup.....there was couple guys working on a couple of them
but the didnt look or sound like mechanics...My feeling is he buys these things at auction and just
cleans em up and does minor painting and body work.....then get a big premium on them...so be it if he sells a lemon...he's needs to eat em every now and again.

Mike ..interesting stuff about the oils ....I used to always use Valvoline and never had a prob with internal engine parts, burning oil or sludge build up til recently. I got a 92 Gran Prix with 117,000
on it. I checked the oil couple years ago and noticed gritty sludge build up on bottom of dipstick.
I changed oil and was still gritty....next couple times I used a flush...its seems to have gotten better
but still got gritty stuff on the stick.....I almost swear somebody put something...sand I would suspect in the oil. There was bit of sand residue around the oil fill hole but thats not proof positive as it get pretty dusty down here in Dallas in the summer. But I was going thru some deal at work and this guy was going around tell others he was going to "get me". So last time I flushed it I got real good rear main seal leak........
I kind of remember someone telling me that all that sludge , crud sealed all kinds of nooks and crannies and helped prevent oil leaks to some degree. Prior to noticing the sludge/grit I went to MObil1 synthetic oil in the G.P. ...trying to get better gas mileage....which I didn't . This whole thing is just too weird...but anyways the G.P. is still running fine...hoping to get another year out of it and trade it in for something thats gets real good gas mileage...maybe a hybrid.
Had a similar experience with a 2000 Toyota Solara v6...bought it used with about 17,000 miles on it..Went to mobil 1 and about 6 months later it started burning oil real bad....bunch of white smoke
coming out the exhaust and black oily residue in the tailpipe. It was still under warranty and took it back to dealer. I found TSB on Toyota's website about "oiling" probs in this engine...apparently they made some of the oil passageways from the top of the engine smaller than they used to. Oil was sludging up and blocking these returns...starving the bottom of the engine(pan) for oil and in some extreme cases causing spun main bearings. I think we got it early and didnt do damage to bearings. Toyota dealer reluctantly ....according to them...removed the engine, pan and cleaned and desludged the engine. Dont really know all they did as I couldnt seem to get a strait answer out of them..they dont seem to like to talk to anyone that knows a least a little bit about it....

But anywhos....learned a couple things...I'm staying only with Valvoline oil from now on...no more synthetics....and locking my car at work now.....

Thanks for all ur help and input Gregg





MikeH on Fri April 08, 2005 12:41 PM User is offline

Yeah, Gregg, Mobil 1 is a great oil but only if you start with a new engine. I also live in Big D and have used Castroil since my early racing days. I never get grit but I also use Bosch or K&N oil filter becaue of the small micron trap factor in both (pays to read the filter specs). I use Castrol Syntec in my explorer and change it ever 5000 miles whether it needs it or not. But, again, I rebuilt the engine about 2 years ago and started it off new. For my wife's van I use Amsoil whic I only change once a year - filter every 6 months - same for my daughter's 97 Explorer, Amsoil. Seems to work good. My other daughter has a 2002 Ranger and I use Syntec in it. No burning at all.

chris142 on Wed May 24, 2006 12:42 AM User is offline

The 2.5 is kinda a week engine, it's lifespan is generally 80-100K. Mine died @ exactly 100K with great maintenance.

The 4.0 inline-6 is much better and these regularly see 200K+ with little maintenance. Unfortunatly swapping in a 4.0 into your 2.5 Jeep is a major undertaking. You must change the engine, trans, transfercase, wiring ,computer and weld the 6cyl mounts onto the frame.

So your pretty much stuck with the 2.5.

chris142 on Wed May 24, 2006 12:44 AM User is offline

Quote
Originally posted by: MikeH
Gregg, your airplane guy that did a flush every time he changed it - wellllllllllll. Depending on the brand, not necessary. There are oils like Pennszoil, Royal Triton, Phillips 66, Quaker State, that have a high paraffin content. That means that they tend to collect dirt and the resulting "crud' winds up in every crack and crevice in your engine where oil can go. On the flip side, Castroil and Valvoline are low paraffin oils and hence keep the engine much cleaner. High paraffin oils allow shellac (from buring the fuel) to build up on piston walls/rings which eventually affects performance but you almost never have an oil leak using them. The shellac buildup means that piston walls get scored but with the high paraffin content the abrasions are never revealed as they are constantly filled in by the paraffin (the original design intent). With low paraffin oils that constantly carry away contaminents to the oil filter the engine wears less but the oil filter must be changed with every oil change to really keep the engine clean. The paraffin deal is why you can't replace Pennsoil with Catroil after about 30K miles. The Castroil carries away the paraffin and you could very possible end up with an oil burner. No more shellac coated cylinder walls allowing oil to seap into the combustion chamber to be burned.

You are very mistaken. Pennz and QS did have a problem with some additives their suppliers sold them back in the 70's but it was for a very short time. Go to www.bobistheoilguy.com and read all about motor oils.

HerkyJim on Wed May 24, 2006 7:51 PM User is offline

My $0.02...

"Engine flush" for modern cars and modern oils (certainly 1995 and newer) is nonsense. If neglect caused serious sludging, best leave that "crud" right where it is; but-- if you just have to screw with it, use high detergent diesel oil and do it slowly.

17 year old kid and a Jeep? Are we talking about a high-center of gravity roll-over-prone utility vehicle? Bad idea for a kid. Not quite as bad as a motorcycle though.

Blown engine rod bearing failure 17 year old kid--Sorry but I'd have to suspect vehicle abuse as a substantial possibility.

If the dealer put "engine flush" into the crankcase, he voided the warranty most likely and should eat the repair bill.

My $0.02

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