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OEM vs Aftermarket compressors: New vs Reman

NateD5 on Sat September 28, 2013 2:59 AM User is offline

So the question is whether reman compressors (typical at parts houses) are as good as new... and whether the OEM brands are better than the non OEM brand.


I've done about 5 AC systems in various cars over the past few years. Most of them last about a year or two before either system leaks or compressor failure.

Recently I wanted to 'fix' the AC right. Initially I replaced the system as I had done on other cars by flushing the condenser with a 'fire extinguisher' style flush bottle. Previous attempts on other cars with acetone took about 8 hours to get them 'clean' so I skipped to store bough (mineral oil based) flushes (a few gallons).

On this attempt I used a reman compressor from Factory Air. It lasted a few weeks.

The next time I decided to get smarter and added an inline filter to the system on the inlet to the compressor. I replaced drier again and condenser and flushed the system as before. I used a 'new' Factory Air compressor. The filter clogged in a few hours and I had a shop flush the system and install a new filter (filters are tough to clean as the metal mesh deforms when they clog from the pressure). This AC system did not last and soon the compressor started making noise.

The last time I fixed this particular system I replaced condenser and evaporator, flushed all lines (even used balled up paper towels to 'shoot' through the lines until I got no gray/black residue). I also installed inline filters on both the low and high side lines right at the compressor. I even cut the muffler on the manifold/lines apart to clean it and TIG welded it back together to be sure the system was perfectly clean. This system got a new Denso brand compressor (expensive compared to a 'new' factory air). System works great now....


So my conclusion based on my experience is that aftermarket compressors just don't last. I was hoping to hear some opinions on OEM (Delphi, Denso, etc...) brands of compressors compared to aftermarket brands. Also hoping to hear about OEM reman vs after market reman. I suspect the metallurgy and build quality on the 'cheaper' aftermarket units is not the same as the OEM units.

Again any opinions would be great. The next system I do is on a car that condenser and evaporator are no longer available. So I'll be forced to flush them and use inline filters (does anyone know of inline filters that have paper or foam elements in them rather than only metal screens?)

Dougflas on Sat September 28, 2013 9:17 AM User is offline

Here is my experience with this subject. First, the flushing procedure. I have used the same type flushing device you mentioned for years. I also used clean shop air. Sometimes it worked and worked well; sometimes not. I used dedicated evaporating flushing solvent which was $20.00 a gallon which was expensive at that time. I found that evaporators were difficult to flush and remove all of the solvent unless I waited an hour or two for the solvent to evaporate. Then I used mineral spirits to get the majority of the oil out and followed up with the proper solvent. The same held for the condensers. I flushed the hoses by disconnecting them. If the hose had a muffler on it, it was removed and replaced with a standard muffler and a hose clamp. GM A6 compressors lasted forever so they were rarely replaced. Seals were replaced and clutch plates were replaced. Fast foward to later vehicles.

Flushing was starting to be more and more difficult due to the construction of condensers. Replacements were a better avenue to take. As for compressors, if they were available, I used new compressors. The R4 compressors made that an easy decision. Still, there was a problem flushing evaporators. No one wants to remove an evaporator unless absolutely necessary. I then purchased a pulsating flushing device from Hecat which solved the evaporator flushing problem. In fact, I had a client's home HVAC system completely contaminated where the connection terminals blew out of his compresssor. This system was left open to the atmosphere for 2 months or more. Green slime took over the system. I removed the evaporator and flushed it with mineral spirts and an automotive flushing solvent that evaporates quickly using the Hecat pulsating flush kit. I used an air compressor as the air source. I flushed the line set the same way. I followed this flushing with with the evaporating solvent and nitrogen. I installed a new condensing unit, drier, evacuated to below 500 microns and charged it up. This was 4 years ago and the system is still running.

If your've going to service AC systems, bite the bullet and purchase a quality flushing device. Even with the proper equipment, some of today's condensers can not be properly flushed and should be replaced when replacing compressors.

mk378 on Sat September 28, 2013 10:42 AM User is offline

Like Dougflas said, improper flusing is often worse than not flushing at all. Removing the residual solvent is the big issue. Solvent will contaminate the oil, leading to compressor failure. A clean system does not need a filter. Parallel flow condensers have very small passages inside which trap small particles, even if those particles never move out again, the partial clogging of the condenser degrades its performance. So a system with a blown compressor and a parallel flow condenser really should have the condenser replaced with a new one. On antique cars which are being totally stripped down and rebuilt anyway, a new evaporator should be strongly considered.

TRB on Sat September 28, 2013 12:53 PM User is offlineView users profile

I personally think going with a OEM compressor is a waste of money. I have seen as many OEM failures as I have after market. Most compressor failures are the result of improper repairs by the mechanic or person doing the work. Of course customer returns compressor because they are defective!

Flushing is a chore! But I believe it is needed if done correctly. People buy a spray bottle of flush and say, yep I flushed they system.

So my take on this question is, instead of OEM vs after market. It should be, what are you willing to do to achieve a proper repair.

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When considering your next auto A/C purchase, please consider the site that supports you: ACkits.com
Contact: ACKits.com


Edited: Sat September 28, 2013 at 12:54 PM by TRB

iceman2555 on Sat September 28, 2013 1:46 PM User is offlineView users profile

This subject of new vs. remanufactured vs. rebuilt, then add in the OE questions and it begins to boggle one's mind. Which is better....does it make a difference in longevity?

First none of the OE's make a compressor at this time. All buy from various sources, the most common today is Denso. Then the question, does an new OE Denso differ from a new aftermarket Denso, i.e. supplied by NAPA,CARQUEST,AUTOZONE etc. NO the units are the same. Denso does not make a sub quality aftermarket new or reman'd unit. They will be the same. Part numbers are of course, different but the compressors are the same.

GM contracted for the R4 and H series for years with aftermarket manufacturers. The last compressor produced by GM was the 'H' series. Recently encountered a Delco (boxed New) HT6 that was a Denso clone. The GM body, but the internals were all Denso. Ford has utilized a Denso based compressor for years, the FS10 and other later variations.

Chrysler uses Denso and Sanden

There are various other mfg'ers that produce compressor in limited quantities for various suppliers.

Denso produces their own reman'd units. These maybe sold thru the dealerships as reman'd....same parts in the aftermarket.

COMPRESSORWORKS,INC and 4Seasons have been suppliers for the OE, typically Delco and Delphi for many years. CWI was purchased by Standard Motor Products app 2 yrs ago. These companies do not operate two different assembly lines for OE apps and aftermarket apps. It is too costly. Both of these companies follow OE guide lines for production and testing. There are two test required one is a 500+ hr and a 300 + hr test. Units are pulled from inventory and tested until they fail or pass the test. Once this occurs, the units are evaluated for potential problem areas and manufacturing or production is modified to facilitate these changes. Compressor purchased from outside vendors are also subject to these same test.

Compressor manufactures maintain a failure warranty of less than 1%.

Aftermarket compressor manufactures offer another service in that they are able to adapt to changes in the market to offer a 'problem solver' for some compressor issues. For instance the use of a rotary vane compressor is certain vehicle that have exhibited high OE failure and aftermarket failures. Changes from the rotary vane type to a piston/swash plate design have help solve this problem. The 'OE's' lack this ability or simply do not address the issue.

The major cause of compressor failures in the field can typically traced to lubricant failures as the #1 cause. Keep in mind that anything that affect the level or flow of refrigerant will effect the flow of lubricant. Volume and Velocity are major contributors to compressor failures. Contaminated lubricants are also a cause of compressor failures. Undercharged systems and lubricant flow dynamics of a modern compressor are warranty issues that arise in the field.

So in answer to your question, as far as new compressor....the difference is almost insignificant. The major cause of compressor failures can be traced to 'short cuts' during the repair process. The systems must be clean, the correct type and amount of lubricant must be added to the system, the system MUST be fully and properly recharged (unfortunately the use of cans/containers and utilizing pressures) is not a approved or valid method to insure proper charge rates. The over/undercharge is so critical that this 'old' procedure simply does not service the system properly. Even the use of 'older' R/R machines may not adequately recharge the system.

Remanufactured compressor fill a need when new may not be available or is too costly. The price difference between the two is often very little...so why not go for the new. The majority of remanufactured compressor are basically new inside. Most will have app 75-80% new parts installed during the rebuild process. These units are also subjected to various testing to insure proper operations. Over several decades operating in the field and manufacturing facility, the major contributor to compressor failures remains a lubricant issue.....short cuts....failure to adequately diagnosis the problem (original failure). It maybe that this statement makes some a bit angry...but sorry...it is a valid statement.

Flushing is another issue that continues to be contributor to failures. No one wishes to expend the labor or money necessary to properly clean a system. Yet when a system is contaminated...the system must be cleaned or new parts installer. If refrigerant touches the part...it must be clean or new. For many years the OE's have stated that systems should not be flushed. However, they suggest that if the part or system is contaminated, the parts contaminated must be replaced. This was for several reasons...one being the lack of a suitable flush for the proper cleaning and the associated labor necessary to complete the repair.

Mineral spirits should NEVER be used to flush an AC system. It is impossible to remove all of this chemical from the system. Mineral spirits is a hydrocarbon based chemical and will not evaporate from the system. It will leave residues on the internal surfaces of the system and once refrigerant is added and the system is operational this residue will be cleaned by the refrigerant and become a contaminant in the system. Typically it attacks the desiccant in the drier/accumulator. Remaining chemicals will affect the lubricant within the system. If a system is severely contaminated, it is highly suggest to replace all parts that are contaminated. The day of a complete AC system replacement are here....the market needs to catch up to this idea. It is not just the AC system, we see this changed mandated in other systems in a modern vehicle. The old adage of "I can fix anything' is changing...driven by the 'OE's" not the repair industry.

Flush chemicals that are high evaporative will not adequately clean a system. To properly remove debris or contaminants, the system must be flush with a liquid based chemical and then the system must be purged to remove the residuals. Evacuation (pulling a vacuum) WILL NOT REMOVE residual flush chemicals. Purging is the only method,...dry filtered air is acceptable. If money is not a concern...use an exotic gas....but air is good...it just needs to be filtered and dry.

Flush in a can will not clean a system...the volume is insufficient to adequately clean the system. A good closed loop machine such as Hecat's units, the AMF100 from CPS and the closed loop system offered by McGriff industries are great units. They offer the ability to properly clean a system that is lacking with hand held equipment. The cost factors are higher, but the performance is what it takes to insure a clean system.

Blowing air, nitrogen...argon...or any gas thru a system will not clean the system. Alcohol in any form will not clean a system. Brake clean is not an acceptable chemical...it evaporates to quickly when powered by air or other gases.





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The strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government.
Thomas Jefferson

Cussboy on Sat September 28, 2013 7:54 PM User is offline

I've been using a rebuilt AirPro compressor from board sponsor AMA on my 1988 Mazda truck for about 10 years now, works great still, and in Arizona heat. Using R-12. I also have an aftermarket evaporator from them.

HECAT on Sun September 29, 2013 11:47 AM User is offline

I agree with everything stated previously by the senior members. Its not about the compressor's, and its all about the installation process. The problem lies in the failure to understand how critical it is, learn what needs to be done, to invest in proven and capable (not cheap) tooling, and replace the necessary parts. Failure to properly clean the circuit and the failure to provide clean lube to the replacement compressor, is not the fault of the compressor. The only difference in many compressor brands is the box.

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HECAT: www.hecatinc.com You support the Forum when you consider www.ackits.com for your a/c parts.

FLUSHING TECHNICAL PAPER vs2.pdf 

Jag987 on Sun September 29, 2013 10:09 PM User is offline

It's all been said. But I will still say for some reason, I just like new compressors. I have had a NAPA Cold Power (not sure who made it) in my personal car for 5 years. Had to go back in once to replace a hose since then, but is still going strong. In air conditioning work, cleanliness and proper charge amounts are essential!!!

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I bought a can of 134a at w**-mart that had a stop leak, oil, and dye in it. It also had a hose and a gauge, so now I'm an AC pro!

TRB on Sun September 29, 2013 11:13 PM User is offlineView users profile

Quote
Originally posted by: Jag987
It's all been said. But I will still say for some reason, I just like new compressors. I have had a NAPA Cold Power (not sure who made it) in my personal car for 5 years. Had to go back in once to replace a hose since then, but is still going strong. In air conditioning work, cleanliness and proper charge amounts are essential!!!

I think we all prefer new over reman. But new OEM v New after market is not worth the price difference in my opinion.



-------------------------
When considering your next auto A/C purchase, please consider the site that supports you: ACkits.com
Contact: ACKits.com

chris142 on Sun October 13, 2013 11:58 PM User is offline

We wont install a reman. Nothing but problems with them so we stopped using them about 15 yrs ago. Sometimes a customer will do their own work and i'll charge it for them and the remans always rattle. 3 weeks later they leak out the front seal.

The Denso that comes on my 02 Jeep is junk. I've replaced 4 (new) plus condensers, dryers etc. They lose the ability to pump after a while. I put a Chinese copy on it and its been fine. Go figure

rebar on Sun June 28, 2015 10:55 AM User is offline

Quote
Originally posted by: chris142
We wont install a reman. Nothing but problems with them so we stopped using them about 15 yrs ago. Sometimes a customer will do their own work and i'll charge it for them and the remans always rattle. 3 weeks later they leak out the front seal.
The Denso that comes on my 02 Jeep is junk. I've replaced 4 (new) plus condensers, dryers etc. They lose the ability to pump after a while. I put a Chinese copy on it and its been fine. Go figure

I just had to revive this old thread as its a good read..

What I cant get over is the huge transfer of wealth chasing cheap prices. How long are we going to buy parts from over sea's until we realize we can do it cheaper considering all the failures?



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95 E350 6bt/nv4500

bohica2xo on Sun June 28, 2015 11:31 AM User is offline

rebar

In your case you are dealing with an FS10 compressor. (1995 E350). There are plenty of new units available. I would call the site sponsor and order one - They are in Phoenix, and know what holds up when it has to run 11 months out of the year.

Yes, the globalists chase the profit - but the agencies lie the EPA & OSHA have chased away manufacturing as well. Making things in the US is difficult. Myself and a few friends still do, but it is an uphill battle. One part we make can be had finished from china for half the price we pay a US foundry for a raw casting. we can only sell so many parts at 3x the price because of that little American Flag label.

Yes, the chinese part has a 5x failure rate & sloppy tolerances - but people will still buy the cheap part from some guy selling them out of his garage on e-bay.

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"Among the many misdeeds of the British rule in India, history will look upon the act of depriving a whole nation of arms, as the blackest."
~ Mahatma Gandhi, Gandhi, An Autobiography, M. K. Gandhi, page 446.

rebar on Sun June 28, 2015 12:17 PM User is offline

Quote
Originally posted by: bohica2xo
rebar

In your case you are dealing with an FS10 compressor. I would call the site sponsor and order one - They are in Phoenix, and know what holds up when it has to run 11 months out of the year.

Yes, the Chinese part has a 5x failure rate & sloppy tolerances - but people will still buy the cheap part from some guy selling them out of his garage on e-bay.

We don't want sloppy failure prone parts. Especially a part that when it does fail, takes out the entire system!

I will pay three times what the chinese want for a well built time saving part and to keep the money over here..

Does ackits.com build or re manufacture their compressors? Does anybody?



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95 E350 6bt/nv4500

bohica2xo on Sun June 28, 2015 12:45 PM User is offline

Context - I was speaking about the parts I manufacture, which are not A/C compressors.

AMA has suppliers for new compressors. It is entirely possible to get high quality parts from overseas - Apple phones all seem to work ok. But you can't get that without paying for it. i go to SEMA every year. The chinese companies are all there, and you can see quality parts. But if you go online to the resellers (alibaba etc) you can buy cheap, low quality stuff - usually the rejected parts from the big guys.

This is where the garage sellers come in. They buy 100 compressors like the one they just paid 300 bucks for on their car, for $40 per unit. By the time they are in the garage, thy are in them 60 bucks. Bam! On e-bay for $149, spam the car forums they are already on with links. No business license. no overhead. People buy the cheap stuff, and 30% of it craps out in the first 6 months. Most of those folks throw their hands up and say it was cheap. But the 5% that works great - those clowns never shut up. Just like the ones that get "Magic in a Can" A/C fixes to work...

New cars are full of offshore parts. They can be good parts, but they will not be the least expensive.

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"Among the many misdeeds of the British rule in India, history will look upon the act of depriving a whole nation of arms, as the blackest."
~ Mahatma Gandhi, Gandhi, An Autobiography, M. K. Gandhi, page 446.

TRB on Sun June 28, 2015 12:51 PM User is offlineView users profile

I go back to the my post of many years ago. Failures are related to a improper repair process more than the import compressors.

ACkits.com does not rebuild compressors. No reason for it. A quality import is cheaper and it is new.

-------------------------

When considering your next auto A/C purchase, please consider the site that supports you: ACkits.com
Contact: ACKits.com

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