Recovery MachineÂ Pages: 12

wptski on Thu August 22, 2013 8:37 AM

Just wondering, for those that have one, which brand and model of recovery machine are you using?

webbch on Thu August 22, 2013 11:34 AM

Mastercool 69000

wptski on Thu August 22, 2013 11:55 AM

Yeah, I seen the model but wondering there are others that list its use with a wide range of refrigerants. I'm thinking about getting at least the EPA 608 Type 1 for small appliances. The MC only lists R-134A use.

Dougflas on Thu August 22, 2013 1:03 PM

A recovery machine and a reclaim machine are 2 different things. If you're trying to reuse refrigerant, then you'll need a reclaimation machine. To recover, there are many choices out there. Check out the choices on this site.

wptski on Thu August 22, 2013 2:55 PM

Dougflas on Thu August 22, 2013 8:06 PM

Reclaim type machines clean the refrigerant better. They do a much better job filtering.

webbch on Thu August 22, 2013 10:37 PM

Are you talking about something like this? That unit basically appears to have an oil separator in addition to a filter. What else is there to do to properly "cleanse" the refrigerant?

(edited to fix link)

Edited: Tue August 27, 2013 at 12:27 AM by webbch

wptski on Fri August 23, 2013 7:38 AM

Quote
Originally posted by: webbch
Are you talking about something like this? That unit basically appears to have an oil separator in addition to a filter. What else is there to do to properly "cleanse" the refrigerant?
Your link is bad. I think the 69500 is what you were referring to?

The 69100 claims to have a oil separator and filter dryer also.

Edited: Fri August 23, 2013 at 7:54 AM by wptski

Leggie on Mon August 26, 2013 9:39 AM

Quote
Originally posted by: Dougflas
A recovery machine and a reclaim machine are 2 different things. If you're trying to reuse refrigerant, then you'll need a reclaimation machine. To recover, there are many choices out there. Check out the choices on this site.

There are three types. Recover, recycle and reclaim. The last is seldom seen.

A recovery machine simply pumps the refrigerant away. The filter isn't there to condition the refrigerant. That filter is there for the same reason you have a filter on your intake; to avoid damage to compressor components. This is what air conditioning and refrigeration techs use. I don't recommend putting it back in since moist refrigerant will cause frosting at metering device which can be a wild goose chase to figure out.

Recycling machine circulates refrigerant through a sediment filter and chemical filter to remove particles and moisture. It is rarely used outside of automotive use since that is the only application that is legal to share refrigerant between equipment of different ownership. Federal regulations prohibit such transfer for anything else.

Reclaim means bringing back to ARI-700 standards. This usually involves fractional distillation and it is seldom done outside of a refinery like industrial plant that processes returned recovered refrigerant.

wptski on Mon August 26, 2013 9:50 AM

So it sounds like you never reuse the refrigerant on the same vehicle although it is allowed under EPA rules? So you must have about the same amount of virgin refrigerant as used? How often must you get tanks reclaimed?

Leggie on Mon August 26, 2013 12:21 PM

Quote
Originally posted by: wptski
So it sounds like you never reuse the refrigerant on the same vehicle although it is allowed under EPA rules? So you must have about the same amount of virgin refrigerant as used? How often must you get tanks reclaimed?

EPA permits using removed refrigerant in any vehicle. Permitted is not the same as technically sound. Suppose you drain the coolant to remove the radiator in order to perform another service. In the process of draining the radiator, you get some dirt from the air dam as well as oil that was spilled in that area.

What you have there is "recovered" coolant that is now dirtier than it was in the system. It isn't illegal to reuse it in this car, or for that matter, any car. Would you put this right back into the car once you put the radiator back in? Recycling portion of a service equipment takes this, runs it through the filter to remove undesirable contaminants. So, if it was coolant, solid particles and oil should be removed.

What you need to think at this point: do you do it enough that the ability to put it back in justify the added expense of recycle capable machine? A shop who specialize in radiator related repairs will certainly benefit from avoiding the waste coolant generated. A general service repair shop can't justify buying a multi-thousand dollar machine and take up a significant space whose sole purpose is to recondition coolant. It makes about as much sense as a DIYer buying a tire mounting machine.

wptski on Mon August 26, 2013 2:08 PM

Anyone can buy a 25/30lb tank of R134A. The same goes for a recovery machine and a scale to weigh it. So lets say that you are going to install virgin R134A but what does one do with the recovered refrigerant? What do you do with it and how often?

Leggie on Tue August 27, 2013 12:59 AM

This post is applicable to United States audience.

Shops that provide service to refrigerant containing portions of AC service must have a recovery equipment. (http://www.epa.gov/ozone/title6/609/justfax.html)
If they do not have it, contracting out refrigerant service is permitted (http://www.epa.gov/ozone/title6/609/subsumm.html)
Personnel who service systems for consideration must have a 609 certificate. (http://www.epa.gov/ozone/title6/609/technicians/609certs.html)

The general idea is no different from handling any other fluid. You must not intentionally let it out into the environment.

You can piggy bank recovered refrigerant until your recovery tank is full. Make friends with a local AC shop who has a recycling machine and an identifier. I wouldn't bother with corporate shops as they probably have strict corporate procurement and purchasing policies. The recovery tank must be current on pressure test or else it is unlawful to transport it.

A 30 lb tank of virgin R134a can be had for $100-200 depending on quantity. Given that it takes time, effort and toll on equipment moisture filter, you probably can't count on getting paid for it. The relatively low cost of new refrigerant is also a barrier to buying a recycling capable machine, so they're most likely to be used by AC specialty shops as well as quick lube type places that turn a high volume. If its really close to your place of business and you do only a few a months, just drive it there or make arrangements for on-site service. Think about the overall cost. Paying someone to perform infrequent procedure that is part of your core business makes more business sense than spending money to equip your shop to do everything in-house.

Do you pay rent for your shop? Does it make sense to have a bunch of infrequently used large equipment tying up space? You'd have to budget a small fridge ish space for a full fledged AC machine.

So, if pulling refrigerant is only auxiliary to what you normally perform and only pull refrigerant in order to perform other services, AC shops don't see you as a competition threat.

Ability to purchase has nothing to do with this. Anyone can go to the store and buy beer. This doesn't meant that a restauranteur can go to Costco to get beer and serve it in their restaurant without a liquor license.

If you're getting paid for work(EPA uses the term "consideration", to avoid technical skirting like..we aren't getting paid, we barter,etc) , even topping off an AC system using DIY kit in your shop means that the technician doing so must have a 609 license just as reselling cases of beer you buy from Costco in your mini mart requires alcohol license.

609 certification only requires the tech to pass a test and fee of $20-25, so buying a suitcase sized (as opposed to refrigerator sized) recovery only machine and a recovery cylinder and a vacuum pump and using only virgin R134a is a good compromise that allows you to work on A/C system while remaining legal.

Edited: Tue August 27, 2013 at 1:04 AM by Leggie

wptski on Tue August 27, 2013 9:48 AM

Thanks for the detailed info.

wptski on Sat August 31, 2013 9:06 AM

In the instructions for the Mastercool 69500 RecoveryMate a vacuum pump is used during use. In this Old Thread here, it's stated that the Mastercool 69100 is all one needs. Have thoughts changed since then? Why not use a vacuum pump in the circuit on the 69100 as shown with the 69500 with a Tee fitting and ball valve for isolating the vacuum pump?

mk378 on Sat August 31, 2013 9:40 AM

You need to evacuate the machine and the new cylinder before using the first time, so as not to have air in the recovered refrigerant. After the air is out, you can close the valves to isolate the machine when it is not in use and use it again without evacuating.

wptski on Sat August 31, 2013 9:55 AM

Quote
Originally posted by: mk378
You need to evacuate the machine and the new cylinder before using the first time, so as not to have air in the recovered refrigerant. After the air is out, you can close the valves to isolate the machine when it is not in use and use it again without evacuating.
I realize that but if you read the instructions for the MC 69500, it states that you must vacuum the system or all the hoses including the recovery machine(putting it in purge position, power off) every time.

Instead on manually purging air by cracking the hoses, you use a vacuum pump.

Edited: Sat August 31, 2013 at 9:57 AM by wptski

wptski on Wed September 11, 2013 11:45 PM

Anyone that has a 69000 or 69100, what's the size of the red/blue port hose fittings? Are they standard 1/4" flare or 5/16" flare sometimes called a 1/2" Acme?

mk378 on Thu September 12, 2013 12:32 AM

5/16 flare is not the same as 1/2 acme. 5/16 flare is very rarely used-- some makers of R-410a stationary equipment used them in an attempt to "idiot proof" against servicing with R-22. Every idiot has a big box of adapters though.

wptski on Thu September 12, 2013 9:29 AM

Quote
Originally posted by: mk378
5/16 flare is not the same as 1/2 acme. 5/16 flare is very rarely used-- some makers of R-410a stationary equipment used them in an attempt to "idiot proof" against servicing with R-22. Every idiot has a big box of adapters though.
Look here: CPS R-410A fitting. The 5/16" appears to be a R-410A standard fitting although 1/4" is still used on some things like a dehumidifier I have.

I remember now, that I found another site that mistakenly called it a 1/2" Acme male-20 UN. While browsing I found YJ and Mastercool hoses that are 14mm male to 1/2" Acme which makes me think that 1/2" Acme is normally used on recovery machines. Is that true?

I believe the 5/16" is a 1/2"-20 UNF thread. I don't know what the pitch is on the 1/2" Acme thread. Hmm, I may have a Acme thread pitch gage somewhere!

The MC recovery machines can be use with all refrigerants but it looks like the supplied hoses won't work. Either the fittings has to be changed, different hoses(if available) or use a 1/2" Acme female swivel to 1/4" male flare.

webbch on Thu September 12, 2013 3:39 PM

Standard 1/4" male flare on the 69000 outlets, so hoses are standard 1/4" female flare.

wptski on Thu September 12, 2013 4:47 PM

Quote
Originally posted by: webbch
Standard 1/4" male flare on the 69000 outlets, so hoses are standard 1/4" female flare.
Thanks!

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