Automotive Air Conditioning Information Forum (Archives)

autoacforumhelp on Tue June 25, 2013 12:33 AM

Year: 2002
Make: Mitsubishi
Model: Lancer
Engine Size: 2.0L
Refrigerant Type: R134a
Pressure Low: N/A
Pressure High: N/A
Country of Origin: Japan

Long time read but first time poster. Just joined a few minutes ago.

I have read a few threads on this forum that the seized clutch bearing or the clutch can be replaced. However the compressor on my car is not the original but a remanufactured unlabeled compressor.

How do I find out part number (make and model) compressor, clutch, and the bearing? I know that bearing has the number printed on it. But, I am wondering if there is any other way to find out the information about the compressor and clutch?



Edited: Tue June 25, 2013 at 12:34 AM by autoacforumhelp

wptski on Tue June 25, 2013 7:54 AM

Quote
Originally posted by: autoacforumhelp
Long time read but first time poster. Just joined a few minutes ago.

I have read a few threads on this forum that the seized clutch bearing or the clutch can be replaced. However the compressor on my car is not the original but a remanufactured unlabeled compressor.

How do I find out part number (make and model) compressor, clutch, and the bearing? I know that bearing has the number printed on it. But, I am wondering if there is any other way to find out the information about the compressor and clutch?
The clutch bearing allows the clutch pulley to rotate freely when the clutch isn't engaged. If the bearing is seized the belt will squeal, slip and be destroyed quickly. Is this what you have?

Most any bearing part number can be determined by ID. OD and thickness at a place that sell that type of stuff.

mk378 on Tue June 25, 2013 8:58 AM

Check that there is still refrigerant. A bad bearing can heat up melt the shaft seal, causing a refrigerant leak. In that case it is best to replace the whole compressor anyway.

autoacforumhelp on Tue June 25, 2013 4:08 PM

Quote
Originally posted by: wptski
The clutch bearing allows the clutch pulley to rotate freely when the clutch isn't engaged. If the bearing is seized the belt will squeal, slip and be destroyed quickly. Is this what you have?

Thanks, wptski. That's what happened.

Quote
Originally posted by: wptski
Most any bearing part number can be determined by ID. OD and thickness at a place that sell that type of stuff.



What's OD and what do you mean by "OD and thickness at a place...." Do you mean identify the outer diameter of the bearing?

I understand the bearing will have an ID and can be replaced with the same ID bearing or something similar. I would like to know (incase entire clutch assembly needs to be replaced) if there is something similar to identify

a) the clutch assembly
b) the compressor



Edited: Tue June 25, 2013 at 4:39 PM by autoacforumhelp

autoacforumhelp on Tue June 25, 2013 4:13 PM

Quote
Originally posted by: mk378
Check that there is still refrigerant. A bad bearing can heat up melt the shaft seal, causing a refrigerant leak. In that case it is best to replace the whole compressor anyway.

Thanks mk378. Assuming there is no shaft damage or leakage. Do you know how I can identify the make and model of a non-labeled compressor and its clutch assembly?

My car takes a MSC90C. Can I replace the clutch from another MSC90C type compressor (different manufacturer)?

mk378 on Tue June 25, 2013 7:04 PM

Usually there is only one compressor that fits the car. Does your compressor look like this one:
AMA MSC90C

Edited: Tue June 25, 2013 at 7:06 PM by mk378

autoacforumhelp on Tue June 25, 2013 7:25 PM

Quote
Originally posted by: mk378
Usually there is only one compressor that fits the car. Does your compressor look like this one:

AMA MSC90C

Only one? Or you mean only one type?

I understand that if I were to replace the entire compressor, I can replace with a MSC90C 5-grove pulley compressor from a different manufacturer. They could have same dimensions. I know they have to fit on the bracket for the compressor, the pulley groves and diameter has to be same. However, I am not sure if the clutches from different manufacturer compressor (but that are compatible for the car) could be different or exactly same. In other words, can clutch on a car's OEM stock compressor be replaced with a clutch from a compatible Arizona Air (or Four Seasons, Spectra Premium, Denso, etc.)?

autoacforumhelp on Tue June 25, 2013 7:28 PM

Quote
Originally posted by: mk378
Usually there is only one compressor that fits the car. Does your compressor look like this one:

AMA MSC90C

If mine had a stock OEM compressor, can I take the clutch off that above compressor to replace the clutch on the OEM compressor? I am suspecting not but not sure.

fix_it on Tue June 25, 2013 7:52 PM

In my experience, aftermarket parts such as a rebuilt compressor will be compatible with the OEM parts. Using General Motors, for example; a clutch from an OEM R4 compressor should fit a 4-seasons or any other brand rebuilt compressor. They get their cores from the OEM, after all. They take an OEM compressor, rebuild it, put their name on it, and sell it back to you. A compressor of a certain type should be the same as any other compressor of that type. Now, if someone fitted a compressor to the car that was of a different type than what was supposed to be there (probably requiring bracket changes and modified hoses), then all bets are off.

I'd guess that you have a rebuilt OEM compressor. Therefore, I'd also venture to guess that the OEM clutch would likely fit. Since I don't have the parts here to look at, that's just and educated guess.

autoacforumhelp on Tue June 25, 2013 8:21 PM

Quote
Originally posted by: fix_it
In my experience, aftermarket parts such as a rebuilt compressor will be compatible with the OEM parts. Using General Motors, for example; a clutch from an OEM R4 compressor should fit a 4-seasons or any other brand rebuilt compressor. They get their cores from the OEM, after all. They take an OEM compressor, rebuild it, put their name on it, and sell it back to you. A compressor of a certain type should be the same as any other compressor of that type. Now, if someone fitted a compressor to the car that was of a different type than what was supposed to be there (probably requiring bracket changes and modified hoses), then all bets are off.

Finally! Those are the two sentences (or opposite of those) I have been waiting to read.

Thanks fix_it.

Quote
I'd guess that you have a rebuilt OEM compressor. Therefore, I'd also venture to guess that the OEM clutch would likely fit. Since I don't have the parts here to look at, that's just and educated guess.

In my situation, I am not 100% sure if it is rebuilt of OEM or aftermarket. That's why I mentioned above that the label on the compressor is missing. It seems the rebuilders remove the label.

Is there any other way to find out the make and model of the compressor?

Even if I don't know the make of the compressor, can I buy the above mentioned compressor and take the clutch off it and use it on my compressor? Of course, assuming that the compressor is not retrofit by changing the compressor bracket. It looks like no bracket modification was done.



Edited: Tue June 25, 2013 at 8:28 PM by autoacforumhelp

wptski on Wed June 26, 2013 9:56 AM

Quote
Originally posted by: autoacforumhelp
Quote

Thanks, wptski. That's what happened.

What's OD and what do you mean by "OD and thickness at a place...." Do you mean identify the outer diameter of the bearing?

I understand the bearing will have an ID and can be replaced with the same ID bearing or something similar. I would like to know (incase entire clutch assembly needs to be replaced) if there is something similar to identify

a) the clutch assembly

b) the compressor
Yes, OD is outside diameter. Bearings normally have a number stamped into the steel or printed/etched but that sometimes wears off. They have books to determine the number by ID, OD, thickness and the type of bearing. I've had to do that hundreds of times for bearings and seals also.

If you Google "AC clutch bearing", you'll come up with a bunch, some show the bearing sizes.

autoacforumhelp on Wed June 26, 2013 3:38 PM

Quote
Originally posted by: wptski
Yes, OD is outside diameter. Bearings normally have a number stamped into the steel or printed/etched but that sometimes wears off. They have books to determine the number by ID, OD, thickness and the type of bearing. I've had to do that hundreds of times for bearings and seals also.

If you Google "AC clutch bearing", you'll come up with a bunch, some show the bearing sizes.

I searched ebay and it seems like there are two ODs:

http://www.ebay.com/dsc/A-C-Compressor-Clutch-/33543/i.html?LH_TitleDesc=1&_from=R40&_nkw=msc90+clutch&rt=nc

wptski on Wed June 26, 2013 7:42 PM

Well, to take it apart and find out what you have. Those bearing are more expensive than I thought.

I worked for Ford and we got bearings/seals and other stock items from Motion Industries. I've purchased stuff from them myself.

autoacforumhelp on Wed June 26, 2013 8:39 PM

Quote
Originally posted by: wptski
Well, to take it apart and find out what you have. Those bearing are more expensive than I thought..

The prices of bearing for my compressor are in the $13 to $30 range.

Quote
I worked for Ford and we got bearings/seals and other stock items from Motion Industries. I've purchased stuff from them myself.

How do I even find a relevant bearing on that site?


Edited: Wed June 26, 2013 at 8:44 PM by autoacforumhelp

wptski on Wed June 26, 2013 9:24 PM

That where you'd go if you have a valid part number. We had all sorts of books to get numbers by sizes and cross reference books if needed. I didn't order the parts, I just supplied the numbers to others that ordered the parts.

Companies like Norma, FAG, New Departure, Fafnir, etc may have online catalogs but you still need ID, OD and width to find the number.

iceman2555 on Thu June 27, 2013 11:45 AM

Take the pulley to a reputable auto parts jobber...not AZ...O'Reillys....Advance.....they should be able to ascertain the bearing number and supply a replacement. Then have the bearing removed and the new one pressed in....simply procedure.
However, what caused the bearing failure. Does the clutch indicate any over heating...discolored metal etc. If so, then replacing the bearing is meaningless. Now you are looking at a compressor and possibly more. Since this is a replacement compressor there is a very good possibility that the OE unit was replaced and the system was not serviced properly...and the result is a over heated driver/pulley that has resulted in the bearing failure.
Discover the root cause of the failure or you shall be performing the job once more....once more.....once more.
If not sure about the clutch...post a photo and we can respond.
Good luck

-------------------------
The strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government.
Thomas Jefferson

wptski on Thu June 27, 2013 7:30 PM

Quote
Originally posted by: iceman2555
Take the pulley to a reputable auto parts jobber...not AZ...O'Reillys....Advance.....they should be able to ascertain the bearing number and supply a replacement. Then have the bearing removed and the new one pressed in....simply procedure.

However, what caused the bearing failure. Does the clutch indicate any over heating...discolored metal etc. If so, then replacing the bearing is meaningless. Now you are looking at a compressor and possibly more. Since this is a replacement compressor there is a very good possibility that the OE unit was replaced and the system was not serviced properly...and the result is a over heated driver/pulley that has resulted in the bearing failure.

Discover the root cause of the failure or you shall be performing the job once more....once more.....once more.

If not sure about the clutch...post a photo and we can respond.

Good luck
What the heck is a auto parts jobber? Sounds like somebody that doesn't deal with Joe Public/DIY'r.

TRB on Thu June 27, 2013 7:58 PM

2330126



-------------------------

When considering your next auto A/C purchase, please consider the site that supports you: ACkits.com
Contact: ACKits.com

TRB on Thu June 27, 2013 8:00 PM

I agree with Ice. Bearing failures usually are a result of another issue.

-------------------------

When considering your next auto A/C purchase, please consider the site that supports you: ACkits.com
Contact: ACKits.com

autoacforumhelp on Fri June 28, 2013 4:23 PM

Quote
Originally posted by: iceman2555
Take the pulley to a reputable auto parts jobber...not AZ...O'Reillys....Advance.....they should be able to ascertain the bearing number and supply a replacement. Then have the bearing removed and the new one pressed in....simply procedure.
Thanks iceman. Why are O'Reillys or Advanced is OK for jobs but not Autozone? Or do you mean neither of those?

Quote
Originally posted by: iceman2555
However, what caused the bearing failure. Does the clutch indicate any over heating...discolored metal etc. If so, then replacing the bearing is meaningless. Now you are looking at a compressor and possibly more. Since this is a replacement compressor there is a very good possibility that the OE unit was replaced and the system was not serviced properly...and the result is a over heated driver/pulley that has resulted in the bearing failure.

Discover the root cause of the failure or you shall be performing the job once more....once more.....once more.
What are the root causes of failure of the bearing? I read elsewhere that it has something to do with voltage regulation or lack of. I can't find the link right now.


Quote
Originally posted by: iceman2555
If not sure about the clutch...post a photo and we can respond.
I will post a pic of it when I get it removed.

wptski on Fri June 28, 2013 7:31 PM

Quote
Originally posted by: autoacforumhelp

What are the root causes of failure of the bearing? I read elsewhere that it has something to do with voltage regulation or lack of. I can't find the link right now.
Poor application design, heat and lack of lube. Those are sealed bearings and come lubed. I've removed many as an application didn't required a sealed bearing. I've seen many that had very little grease. The rule of thumb is to pack no more than 50% full although I've never seen one burn out because of too much grease, they say it can happen.

If one is very careful, you can remove the seal, pack it and reinstall the seal. I've done this a few times.

iceman2555 on Sat June 29, 2013 10:55 AM

The statement was meant to include ALL of the retail orientated jobbers...AZ, O'Reilly's,Advance and others. Most of the counter people in these locations have no earthly idea how to identify a bearing. They can look it up on the computer if needed...but then...have to know what bearing it is....the number...size etc. Most can not utilize a 'Buyer's Guide' (picture and specifications) because they do not have it or have never been informed of it's existence. It ain't in the computer it does not exist.
A good parts store/jobber, NAPA, CARQUEST (?) or independent often are exposed to this type situation each day They have the expertise, the catalogues and other informational services etc to accomplish this task. Many also have machine shops in the facility to remove and press in the new bearing. This service is severely lacking in the retail orientated business. And, yes, the traditional jobber can sale the part 'over the counter' also. Many of the counter people have spend serious time 'back of the counter' and know cars....many better than some techs.

It's your time and dollars....but it is very doubtful that the bearing simply decided last Monday @ 7:46 AM that....'heck....I'm not taking this crap anymore and decided to fail'...something in the operation of the system is out of spec. First inclination would be the previous service. A restricted condenser (high head pressures), non performing cooling system (fans etc....more high side pressures), lack of sufficient refrigerant (lack of lubricant migration/internal friction in compressor) resulting in possible clutch slippage.....heat generated into pulley bearing area.....grease liquifies at about 350 degrees....grease is displaced.....metal on metal...high rpm.....failed clutch bearing. Failure to diagnosis the failure....equals....all the above once more....and once more.....and it is not because the installed replacement bearing is defective.....

Do you know why the compressor was replaced earlier....do you know what other parts/or labor was performed in the replacement? This would be the first place to begin your search for a root cause.

Good luck!

-------------------------
The strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government.
Thomas Jefferson

iceman2555 on Sat June 29, 2013 11:04 AM

Sorry to be a bearer of seriously bad news....since the unit has already had one (at least) aftermarket compressor installed...there is a very good possibility that the system was not serviced correctly. The major cause of compressor failures on late model vehicles is the failure to completely service the AC system after a compressor failure. On this vehicle, it is almost impossible to properly service the system without replacing the condenser. There are a multitude of reasons....but mainly...they cannot be cleaned and proper flow restored after becoming restricted from compressor debris.
From the units coming back thru the back door and the ones we conduct failure analysis...the majority have no, very little or severely contaminated lubricant in the case. All of these can contribute to the problem experienced and all are the direct result of someone not properly servicing the system.
I is felt that his repair will surpass a new pulley bearing....more like a complete system service. Have a soft spot somewhere for you....this could become quite expensive in a very short time.
Good luck....think it is going to be needed.


-------------------------
The strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government.
Thomas Jefferson

autoacforumhelp on Sat June 29, 2013 3:13 PM

Quote
Originally posted by: iceman2555]
A good parts store/jobber, NAPA, CARQUEST (?) or independent often are exposed to this type situation each day They have the expertise, the catalogues and other informational services etc to accomplish this task. Many also have machine shops in the facility to remove and press in the new bearing. This service is severely lacking in the retail orientated business. And, yes, the traditional jobber can sale the part 'over the counter' also. Many of the counter people have spend serious time 'back of the counter' and know cars....many better than some techs.
So I can take the clutch to a jobber myself?

Quote
Originally posted by: iceman2555]
It's your time and dollars....but it is very doubtful that the bearing simply decided last Monday @ 7:46 AM that....'heck....I'm not taking this crap anymore and decided to fail'...something in the operation of the system is out of spec. First inclination would be the previous service. A restricted condenser (high head pressures), non performing cooling system (fans etc....more high side pressures), lack of sufficient refrigerant (lack of lubricant migration/internal friction in compressor) resulting in possible clutch slippage.....heat generated into pulley bearing area.....grease liquifies at about 350 degrees....grease is displaced.....metal on metal...high rpm.....failed clutch bearing. Failure to diagnosis the failure....equals....all the above once more....and once more.....and it is not because the installed replacement bearing is defective.....
I was going to replace the compressor (+ condenser and expansion valve) along with flushing but wanted to replace the bearing or clutch first.

Quote
Originally posted by: iceman2555
Do you know why the compressor was replaced earlier....do you know what other parts/or labor was performed in the replacement? This would be the first place to begin your search for a root cause.
It was replaced because the clutch was not engaging. No debris or anything. But the symptoms were lack of cooling intermittently.