Automotive Air Conditioning Information Forum (Archives)

pippo on Sun October 14, 2012 10:22 AM

Year: 99
Make: plymouth
Model: voyager
Engine Size: 3.3
Refrigerant Type: r134a

People,

It flooded my cab, and I pulled up carpet, ripped out moldy jute backing, etc. Heres a picture of lower evaporator case:

It seeps in (water) from under the lowest "stud" mount, about where a passenger would have his feet, even higher up. Why is this drain (Im assuming its the drain tube) clogged? How does one unclog such a tube, or at least, verify that the tube is cleared? Crawl under van, and poke the tube with a rod? Any way to get bleach into the evap case?

Thanks

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beware of the arrival

iceman2555 on Sun October 14, 2012 8:53 PM

This is not an uncommon problem with Chrysler vehicles. Typically there is a crack in the housing. The repair involves the removal of the evap/case for repair. A suggestion would be to obtain a new case from Chrysler and replace the darn thing. Have tried several repair procedures and eventually they fail also.
The carpet and padding should dry. Use a wet/dry vac to remove as much water as possible and then place a block of wood/brick under the carper and leave the area open for several days. If possible leave the door open to enhance air movement. A good spray with Lysol or other fungicide will always help.


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The strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government.
Thomas Jefferson

pippo on Mon October 15, 2012 5:10 PM

Quote
Originally posted by: iceman2555
This is not an uncommon problem with Chrysler vehicles. Typically there is a crack in the housing. The repair involves the removal of the evap/case for repair. A suggestion would be to obtain a new case from Chrysler and replace the darn thing. Have tried several repair procedures and eventually they fail also.

The carpet and padding should dry. Use a wet/dry vac to remove as much water as possible and then place a block of wood/brick under the carper and leave the area open for several days. If possible leave the door open to enhance air movement. A good spray with Lysol or other fungicide will always help.

Geez, Iceman, thats not what I wanted to hear.....LOL!!

Cripe- I gotta yank the dashboard- again!! (last yanked in 2005, for new evaoprator).

Oh well, at least I have some honest fellow members here which I can trust to give me the painful news straight- like a Man.

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beware of the arrival

pippo on Mon October 15, 2012 5:51 PM

OK, heres what I found- I am OK with the prospect of yanking the dash if it comes to it, but I looked all over the bottom of that case (not shown in picture), and theres absolutely no crack/seepage I can see from pass side floor area. Even if the crack is say, behind the case (between case and firewall), making it difficult to view, shouldnt it seep toward the bottom with gravity? It doesnt jive.

Also, jacked upthe van, crawled under, and theres seepage/wetness around the asbestos(?) behind the catalytic converter aluminum shield area. The whole backing of that insulation, I suppose one calls it, is soaked. Seems like theres no drain tube to "drip" onto the road surface. This "soaking" is seeping from above somewhere.

Bottom line- if I dont see a crack/seepage at the botom of the case inside, does that mean case is still good/no "crack"?

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beware of the arrival

Edited: Mon October 15, 2012 at 5:52 PM by pippo

iceman2555 on Mon October 15, 2012 6:36 PM

Test for a leak in this area. Insure that this area is dry and then place a paper towel around or as close to the flange/firewall as possible. Start the vehicle and operate the AC with the doors open. This will force the system to produce the greatest amount of condensation. Check the paper towel....if it indicates moisture....there is the problem.



The leak is normally just the inside of the 'flange'. Hopefully this is not the area....the labor is extensive....try to locate exactly where the leak is prior to disassembly.

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The strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government.
Thomas Jefferson

iceman2555 on Mon October 15, 2012 6:38 PM

Test for a leak in this area. Insure that this area is dry and then place a paper towel around or as close to the flange/firewall as possible. Start the vehicle and operate the AC with the doors open. This will force the system to produce the greatest amount of condensation. Check the paper towel....if it indicates moisture....there is the problem. Paper towels indicate moisture very rapidly. Insure that this area is dry to reduce possible contamination of the test procedure.



The leak is normally just the inside of the 'flange'. Hopefully this is not the area....the labor is extensive....try to locate exactly where the leak is prior to disassembly.

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The strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government.
Thomas Jefferson

pippo on Mon October 15, 2012 7:27 PM

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beware of the arrival

pippo on Mon October 15, 2012 7:33 PM

Big Thanks, Ice. Man, howd you know? Thats exactly where the leak is! (I didnt mention before, and its not so apparent on my photo). It oozes right under that black plastic "flange". Is that where the drain tube is, right behind it? So, lemme do your test tomorrow, just to confirm twice- then I'll get back to you.

Oh, just fot the heck of it, the picture below is a gizmo I forgot to install in 2005 when I put the case back together. I think its the "tip" that pops onto the drain tube (which isnt visible from anywhere under the car!) I didnt thing I had to remove case all over again at that time to installthis- it hasnt leaked in all those years, so Im not sure if this L shaped drip extension if that important, huh?

Thanks


(oops, no picture....wheres the picture icon???????



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beware of the arrival

Edited: Mon October 15, 2012 at 7:35 PM by pippo

NickD on Tue October 16, 2012 9:01 AM

I had good success using a high temperature glue gun with the high temperature sticks. 60 watt unit, try and clean the area and dry it first. Could save a lot of extra work by applying a thick coating of this stuff. Rough up the area with 60 grit sand paper, do it slowly so the glue heats up the base plastic for a far superior bond.

If this doesn't work, can always replace the case. Often what idiots design this plastic stuff, thickness has to be uniform because plastic has a considerable thermal expansion, and they use the world's largest snap in tabs fastened to large plastic pieces using a #60 size drill piece of plastic shank expecting it to hold.

Seems like the older I get, the more cussing I do.

iceman2555 on Tue October 16, 2012 9:58 AM

Nick, there is some agreement with the hot glue, but in this case, since the revamp case removal is so labor intensive, I prefer to simply replace the darn thing. I was successful with a hot air plastic welder once when I repaired the case for a friend. Salvaged a piece of plastic from the donor case and welded the crack. It worked until my friend traded his vehicle.
Also keep in mind for a DIY'er an attempt to repair the case is acceptable when he is producing the labor, but in a shop environment, when the repair would probably require a warranty, I simply prefer to replace the darn thing.
The issue seems to be body flex, or at least this was the explanation given by a Chrysler factory rep.

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The strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government.
Thomas Jefferson

pippo on Tue October 16, 2012 4:01 PM

OK, thanks, people. I thought of hot glue, even silicone . yes, I will remove the foam between the case flange and firewall (theres foam between there). Then, dry it out bone dry, and proceed. Should I try silicone from a caulk gun , smeared into there, or hot glue?
Hey, as long as it stops 99% of the seepage, its a win - win for me.

Also, WHY is there no visible tube draining from under van? (seeps onto the asbestos between van body and cat shield)

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beware of the arrival

pippo on Tue October 16, 2012 4:04 PM

OK, heres that picture I wasnt able to include in earlier post :

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beware of the arrival

pippo on Tue October 16, 2012 4:05 PM

Thats the gismo I did not install on my van in 2005 when I redid the evaporator. Forgot to. Thing is, I dont remember where it was supposed to go. Just wanted to run it by yous. I take it it isnt a big deal regarding my current seepage problem?

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beware of the arrival

iceman2555 on Tue October 16, 2012 8:16 PM

On the opposite side of the flange shown in the photograph, there is a nipple that protrudes thru the fire wall. This drain attaches to this nipple.
The problem with silicone is the lack of adhesion to the plastic and with body flex it tends to break contact. You may attempt to rough up the area but, I think a more substantial repair is needed.
You may try drilling a very small hole on each side of the crack (one located), then use a Dremel tool or similar tool to open the crack into a 'V' shape. Then rough up the area with sand paper and try the hot glue or silicone. Something similar to 'JB Weld' may work or a similar product that would maintain some flexibility in the joint.
All this being said, I do not think the case is that expensive and this would be my suggestion for a repair.....esp if you desire to maintain the vehicle for a length of time. If it were being traded very soon....heck go for the quick fix.

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The strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government.
Thomas Jefferson

GM Tech on Tue October 16, 2012 8:35 PM

1992 B cars in GM assembly plant left off a few of those Gizmos- drain tube elbows we call them -- the water backs up into evap case (and out through the plastic felt seams) on long non-stop highway driving trips- because the tube bent down enhances the chimney effect of drain water coming out. Air pressure from the outside blocks the flow of water out of the drain- without the tube- the down turned gizmo you call it allows for the chimney effect to suck the water out of the drain tube.

I had several complaints of water on back seat passenger side floorboard on B body cars- and all of them were missing the drain tube elbow-- B cars low spot was in rear floorboard.

So do you do any extended highway driving, non-stop for 30 minutes or more-- during humid weather, or rain? If so you need your gizmo on there- it popped off when you pulled your evap case out from the inside- it install on the outside firewall side.

The tubes are there for this very reason, to avoid water back-up while driving...How do you know your leak does not occur ONLY while driving? Have you only tested for leaks while car is in park? Put your drain tube on and see if it still leaks...while driving...

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The number one A/C diagnostic tool there is- is to know how much refrigerant is in the system- this can only be done by recovering and weighing the refrigerant!!
Just a thought.... 65% of A/C failures in my 3200 car diagnostic database (GM vehicles) are due to loss of refrigerant due to a leak......

Edited: Tue October 16, 2012 at 9:27 PM by GM Tech

NickD on Wed October 17, 2012 7:52 AM

Just trying to help with an easy cure, yes, also have welded plastic. But also noted this a 14 year old vehicle noted for head gasket failure at around over a 100K, the transaxle failures. Putting a big box on a compact size chassis really doesn't last. Kid's with more than two kids have to drive these things, can't even fit three baby car seats in a standard sedan so need that third seat.

Not like have over a half of dozen kids and tossing them in back of a pickup truck back in the old days.

Not having a drain tube installed paints an entirely different picture. Can go to your hardware store with all these plastic barbed hose fittings and tubing and make your own. May have to cut off part of the barb and use silicone glue for those sharp bends. A heat gun helps.

How many miles on this thing?

Yeah, with the FAA, exact part must be used, zero modifications, same with doing work for somebody else. Really not a safety requirement with a drain tube, can also purchase fishing wading boots.

iceman2555 on Wed October 17, 2012 11:11 AM

GM. can remember the problem with the 'B''s and Ford had this problem also on the E series. Had a 'gaseous expulsion of methane from the cerebral region' about the drain tube. Chrysler and Ford at one time placed a 'crimp' in the drain to reduce air pressure back into the case and enhance water wicking. Often this would become clogged with sludge and other foreign material.....many would simply remove the drain tube or remove and cut off the 'crimp'....this would result in flooded floor pans.
An apology to pippo....install the drain and retest your system. Perhaps this will rectify the water drain problem. Hope so...truly hate dash work....in fact due to physical size, the inability to move in contorted positions and eyes that do not focus as well as they once did....simply refuse dash work....that is way God made young people....good luck, I hope it works for you.

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The strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government.
Thomas Jefferson

NickD on Wed October 17, 2012 2:29 PM

Ha, getting under the dash is still easy for me, its getting back out that causes me to panic.

pippo on Wed October 17, 2012 4:22 PM

Thanks, people.

Nick, van has 160,000 miles on it. And, Iceman, thanks for the inspiration for maybe putting the elbow back on to see if it stops the leak. Good point. Thing is- why cant I get under there to push it back on?! man, what a project- seems when Im under the van, theres no way to get an arm up that area! Theres so much dang "engine bracketry" and stuff! Can one do this from above in engine bay without removing alternator/serpentine belt, etc?

If this fails/If I cant pop this backk on, I'll try the hot glue gun/silicone this weekend, as I need 1-2 days with no driving the van to dry it out........

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beware of the arrival

NickD on Thu October 18, 2012 8:40 AM

Looks like your evaporator is inside of this vehicle, some are under the hood. Warm outside air hits that cold evaporator, condenses, have water, settles on the low side of the case, should have a drain that goes through the firewall and drips on the ground rather than your floor carpets.

Not sure if that crack is your problem, needs that drain. I never know until I study it, and with so many different projects, will forget it the day after. What I do remember with these minivans, hood is small with the engine buried in it. Believe inaccessibility is the word they use. I am going back years, maybe somebody here has a better memory, but I kind of recall the drain goes from the inside and plugs through the firewall. But maybe that was on a different vehicle.

iceman2555 on Thu October 18, 2012 4:19 PM

The drain tube connects to the male nipple on the engine side of the firewall. Simply slips over the nipples and release the clamp....looks very simple....except the angle that one must twist their hand and arm to accomplish this task...esp with all the extra stuff crammed into the engine compartment. Probably best to get the car on a lift....or perhaps raise it sufficient with some drive on's that one can extend their arm sufficiently to install the part.
Good luck.

I keep wondering how to twist my arm and hand at 360 degrees and then bend another 90 degrees on the vertical, dislocate my fingers to a negative 36.75245 degrees to slide the connector onto the nipple. Then must command the first and second fingers to move 180 degrees apart to release the spring clamp. All this while laying on my back with about 0 inches of clearance between the floorboard and my nose.

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The strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government.
Thomas Jefferson

pippo on Thu October 18, 2012 5:30 PM

LOL.....OK, guys. I can get it on jackstand no problem. I get under there easy- its just when Im under there, geez, no way to get through all the bracketry/cradle/exhaust pipe/cat/etc. But, I will try one more time. Theres no way Im yanking the dash for this- I will go with hot glue/silicone first. Oh, the L tube end has been off for years and years- not sure why it matters though, as the leak just started. So, based on that, Im kinda not expecting too much from putting it back on, right?

I will let yous know what happens!!!!! Might not be tonight......

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beware of the arrival

Edited: Thu October 18, 2012 at 5:33 PM by pippo

pippo on Thu October 18, 2012 5:57 PM

Wow- I jumped on the project just now- I jacked it up, and felt around down there, and BOOM- I found the drain tube! Man, it is up there. I looked at it and it sticks out of the firewall horizontal, about 1 1/2 ", and strangely, the lower part of the tube is kinda hacked off/missing. Should this be normal? Maybe thats why the case leaks internally. maybe the tube cracked/deteriorated (at least the lower part of it), and now the drainage oozes off, then with the capillary effect it heads back to ooze back into the van, right?

So, I pushed the L tube on! It had a wire clamp, which I also squeezed a bit. Its on there now!! Hopefully, it will help especially since the horizontal exit tube it "damaged. man, cant wait to try it. Will take it for a long ride and the see. Lets keep our fingers crossed!!

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beware of the arrival

iceman2555 on Thu October 18, 2012 6:37 PM

Hopefully this will eliminate the 'wet floor syndrome'. I sincerly hope so.....damn dash work!

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The strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government.
Thomas Jefferson

GM Tech on Thu October 18, 2012 8:03 PM

Can't tell you how many times I forgot to pull off tube- just pull out hvac case from inside and when job is done- the drain tube is on the floor below the car/truck...so yes it is completely necessary to have it on- if you don't have one- I've used just a rubber hose the right size before and snugged in on with no clamp-- most manufacturere don't use clamps anyway...just Dodge/plymouth ..

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The number one A/C diagnostic tool there is- is to know how much refrigerant is in the system- this can only be done by recovering and weighing the refrigerant!!
Just a thought.... 65% of A/C failures in my 3200 car diagnostic database (GM vehicles) are due to loss of refrigerant due to a leak......