Automotive Air Conditioning Information Forum (Archives)

emsvitil on Sat August 18, 2012 4:26 AM

Year: NA
Make:

If you buy the small cans locally in California you have to deal with a $10 deposit and the self-sealing cans.


Has anybody had any problems buying cans thru the web (like ebay) to get the normal old-style cans and no deposit to worry about.


If it helps I have the EPA 609 certification that I use for R12 cans.



thanks




-------------------------
Ed
SoCal

Edited: Sat August 18, 2012 at 4:27 AM by emsvitil

AutoCool on Sat August 18, 2012 10:31 AM

Here in Sweden there are no small cans and the deposit for a 13.6kg cylinder is about 150 dollars.

Unless the California cans are much more expensive, won't you probably save money on shipping anyway?

mk378 on Sat August 18, 2012 12:39 PM

I'd just buy a 30, which I think there's no deposit even in California. It's less than half the price per oz in the big tank. Reputable sellers should not be shipping the small cans to CA (or WI, where no type of small can is allowed).

Edited: Sat August 18, 2012 at 12:44 PM by mk378

Leggie on Sat August 18, 2012 4:04 PM

Quote
Originally posted by: emsvitil
If you buy the small cans locally in California you have to deal with a $10 deposit and the self-sealing cans.

Has anybody had any problems buying cans thru the web (like ebay) to get the normal old-style cans and no deposit to worry about.
If it helps I have the EPA 609 certification that I use for R12 cans.
thanks

Buy a large cylinder then which will get you $5-7/lb rate. Those little cans are costly to begin with. At common retail prices those 3/4 lb cans end up being $13.33 to $20 per pound.

EPA 609 is not designed to get you around local regulations.

Cussboy on Sat August 18, 2012 6:21 PM

Next time you make a road trip east-ways, buy some cans in Yuma, Blythe, Lake Havasu City, Las Vegas, Reno, etc.

What exactly are the self-sealing cans? And wouldn't you get your $10 deposit back - why is that such a big deal?

Edited: Sat August 18, 2012 at 6:23 PM by Cussboy

Leggie on Sat August 18, 2012 6:28 PM

Quote
Originally posted by: Cussboy
Next time you make a road trip east-ways, buy some cans in Yuma, Blythe, Lake Havasu City, Las Vegas, Reno, etc.



What exactly are the self-sealing cans? And wouldn't you get your $10 deposit back - why is that such a big deal?

They're like aerosol cans and does not depend on the charging fitting to seal it. It's big deal on the last can, because you have to return it within 90 days to get the deposit.

If you have a system that needs 28oz, you'd buy three 12oz cans and use the third can to get to 28oz but you'll have 8oz left. When its returned through reverse logistics network, the store returns it to manufacturer whom then recovers the remainder.



Democratic People's State of California is a joke. A China plate I bought at Wal-Mart came with a warning sticker that the glazing contains chemicals known to the State of California to cause cancer. Is this a joke?


Edited: Sat August 18, 2012 at 6:30 PM by Leggie

emsvitil on Sat August 18, 2012 9:39 PM

I'm leary of the 30lb canisters because I don't need refrigerant all that often.

I HAD a 30lb R12 canister in which I used 2 lbs.

Had it in the shed for 7 years until I needed it again.

It was empty.........


28lbs had leaked out.

With the cans, worst case is the couple of ounces left in the can that I'd lose.


Plus, the ebay cost is about $7.50 a can if you look............



-------------------------
Ed
SoCal

AutoCool on Sun August 19, 2012 4:17 AM

Found a "retailers guide" on the California refrigerant cans.

- What happens to any "unclaimed" deposit (i.e. consumer does not return the Ca-certified can for a return of the $10 deposit)?

- CARB requires that any unclaimed deposit funds be spent on education materials to inform consumers of proper A/C recharging techniques and measures to reduce greenhouse gas emissions associated with DIY recharging.

90 seems like too short a time limit to me. Humm, I was in the USA about 3 years ago and a small auto parts shop there was selling 1kg refrigerant cans from Mexico (Dupont I believe?) , they had some sort of self sealing valve too. According to the retail guide, that's not even a "small container" since 1kg is more than 32 ounces.

Don't the DIY can adaptors have a sharp needle that pierce the top of the can? Does that mean that if you use one, the California can becomes damaged and you WILL NOT get your deposit money back? The retailers guide states that the cans must be UNDAMAGED. Or do all the California cans come with a built-in hose? Seems that would make them "not for professional use". What happens to the refrigerant that remains in the can adaptor, is THAT ok to release?

I would think that buying refrigerant cans outside of California in person or by postorder would be considered smuggling. The retail guide doesn't specify R-134a, just "refrigerant".

mk378 on Sun August 19, 2012 12:04 PM

The California cans have a special tapping system. When the tapper is removed, the can valve reseals. The store sends returned nearly empty cans somewhere where the residual refrigerant is recovered and the empty can is scrapped. It's a lot of work to save 1/4 oz of refrigerant when the customer has just put 11 3/4 oz into his leaky car and it's going to leak out again anyway.

I don't know if any adapter exists to connect them to a professional manifold. They're intended for the cheesy plastic "gas and go" type of customer.

Edited: Sun August 19, 2012 at 12:10 PM by mk378

Leggie on Sun August 19, 2012 5:03 PM

Quote
Originally posted by: AutoCool
Found a "retailers guide" on the California refrigerant cans.

Don't the DIY can adaptors have a sharp needle that pierce the top of the can? Does that mean that if you use one, the California can becomes damaged and you WILL NOT get your deposit money back? The retailers guide states that the cans must be UNDAMAGED. Or do all the California cans come with a built-in hose? Seems that would make them "not for professional use". What happens to the refrigerant that remains in the can adaptor, is THAT ok to release?
You don't read, do you? I already explained California can is like aerosol can, like hair spray, spray paint etc.

Quote

I would think that buying refrigerant cans outside of California in person or by postorder would be considered smuggling.
Yes it does. Same applies in most states in the US when it comes to liquor too.


Quote
Originally posted by: mk378
I don't know if any adapter exists to connect them to a professional manifold. They're intended for the cheesy plastic "gas and go" type of customer.

I remember seeing an adapter at NAPA for using self tapping cans with standard can adapters. You can use that with a can tap with 1/2" ACME fitting or...
you can also use a R12 retrofit kit. Screw in the low-side adapter into 1/4" port on manifold port, then simply clip on the gas 'n go hose.

AutoCool on Mon August 20, 2012 1:46 AM

Quote
Originally posted by: Leggie


You don't read, do you? I already explained California can is like aerosol can, like hair spray, spray paint etc.

Sorry, didn't realize that hair spray, spray paint, etc. is sold with/requires an adaptor hose. My mistake. Thanks for the detailed explanation.

JJM on Sun August 26, 2012 4:36 PM

At first I thought this post was a joke, but sure enough there is "nothing" normal about California, extending even to cans of refrigerant.

I mean really, to go through all this trouble for a lousy can of refrigerant??? These people are not just vermin, but diseased vermin. Is it any wonder the economy in California is so weak, and the state is teetering on bankruptcy? All this regulation and burden on business for something with absolutely no basis in science whatsoever. It's funny how the left hates and despises religion so much, but has no problem bowing at the altar of "climate change".

So now who does this program hurt the most? The folks that are likely to service their vehicles themselves. You certainly don't want to keep a few cans for service with a $10 core charge good for only 90 days. If you need 3 or 4 of these cans, instead of it costing $30/$40 like in any other state, you're going to need to shell out $75/$100. What about the poor folks liberals are supposed be so concerned about?

Isn't stupid... wasting and burning fuel for the return trip back to the store to get your money back... how does that help the environment??? What a bunch of ignorant jack_sses.

Best thing to do is make sure all cans are returned completely empty.

It wasn't that long ago that R-134a was touted as the "environmentally friendly" refrigerant. If it was so environmentally friendly, why is California so worried about a little seeping out of the can? Once again, the people were sold a bill of goods.

Surprisingly, this program is not administered by the Department of Conservation, which takes care of deposits on beverage containers, so another bureaucracy was probably created just for this program. Probably a good thing though, since that program went broke (because the state borrowed from it), so in typical California communist fashion, they raised the processing rate on beverage manufacturers by over 825% - yes over EIGHT HUNDRED AND TWENTY FIVE PERCENT.

Yep, we're heading to the bottom of the sewer in overdrive now.

Joe

iceman2555 on Sun August 26, 2012 6:22 PM

This can is stated for use in the other states as well. The EPA has been concerned about this 'release' of refrigerant for several years. But they will not make the move to require certification or restrict sales because of the impact upon the 'financially challenged'. But get use to the idea...the newer HFO1234yf is not stated for small cans. The new refrigerant is currently available in a 10lb container. Current price is $650.00 for 10 lbs. The R/R machines and other equipment is showing up in GM dealers already.

-------------------------
The strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government.
Thomas Jefferson

JJM on Sun August 26, 2012 8:20 PM

$65 per pound??? R-12 is cheaper!!! This is criminal. I guess the idea is to make it as close to impossible for DIY repair, since how many DIY'ers are going to buy a 10 pounder.

To think there was a time when you could recharge your A/C system for less than a $1 a can.

I wonder how long before the anti-progress crowds finds HFO1234yf causes some kind of new environmental catastrophe and bans it as well? I'm telling ya, they're not gonna be happy until air conditioning and refrigeration is banned COMPLETELY.

So now it's either gonna be a waste tank or THREE recovery machines. Before long, shops won't have any bays anymore with the square footage taken up by recovery machines.

Am I the only one outraged by this?

Joe

AutoCool on Mon August 27, 2012 1:59 AM

Neighbors car.. För your viewing pleasure.


Edited: Mon August 27, 2012 at 2:00 AM by AutoCool

bohica2xo on Tue August 28, 2012 2:00 AM

JJM:

I am certainly outraged by the BS in the automotive world. All of it. Genital Motors becoming Government Motors. Bailouts. The Chevy Volt fiasco - they are stopping the line because people simply are not stupid enough to spend 40k for a Cruze with a battery. They will eventually find a way to shove them up our backside like they have with the refrigerants...

I do find it comedic that they chose that identifier for the new stuff. The cognomen "1234 You're F***ed" comes instantly to mind. Try to remember it that way. At least they have a matching "YF" lube to "F" you with.

The good news is the people we like the least will make a mess of this very quickly. With the wildly inflated price of the refrigerant it will only be months before a blend of R290 & something else shows up as a "replacement". The industrious little folks in China will be cranking out some sort of carcinogen that will act as a substitute soon enough, but will be sure to print the "1234YF" in 60 point type with the word "substitute" in 5 point type someplace else. Profit (greed) drives dishonesty - look at the HC clowns & the 12-something names. Selling 30 cents worth of butane for 14 bucks. It will happen fast @ $65 per pound.

I give the well known online auction site about 90 days before it is flooded with cheap adapters to use old gauges on the new fittings. There is already a sealer kit for sale on there for 1234YF. The Harbor Bomber Freight service tools can't be far behind either.

I have already had to clean up a mess from a 410A service gone bad. Seems that the auction site is awash in adaptors for as little as 6 bucks. R22 jug on the roof in July has enough pressure to charge the low side of a 410a system... The guy barely spoke english, was doing a service call on a saturday for cash. Seems the tenant was not willing to wait for the landlord to get his commercial service company out the next week. Once the system was contaminated the price went way up too.

1234YF will be a huge headache. That Subaru gets tagged in the front end? HAHAHAHA. El Cheapo / Progressive / Allmistake / etc. will want to send it to the craphole bodyshop. They will call a guy that has 3 teeth and no english to come charge it. Going to make for some great watching.

B.

-------------------------
"Among the many misdeeds of the British rule in India, history will look upon the act of depriving a whole nation of arms, as the blackest."
~ Mahatma Gandhi, Gandhi, An Autobiography, M. K. Gandhi, page 446.

Leggie on Tue August 28, 2012 5:45 PM

There was a product called "Touch 'n Charge" R12 which is the same design. As the cost of refrigerant rises, the self-sealing can is a sound idea putting the whole deposit thing aside.
The can itself is like Dust-Off with a top fitting designed to fit car A/C system.

The $4 (adjusted for 2012 price from $2 1985 price) R12 cans use the worst possible design. The flat top makes a contact good enough to stay gas tight for the duration of charging, but the left over leak out forcing you to overcharge the system or vent it to the atmosphere (over the course of a few days to a week). Screw top cans were around which uses 7/16"-20 but such a can tap is rare.

Screw top designs like R134a holds the contents fairly well but it ties up the adapter.
Self-sealing type doesn't tie up adapters and can be saved for years, or even be transferred to another user without losing contents.

JJM on Tue August 28, 2012 11:53 PM

Well Bohica at least you made me laugh, and I learned a new word today: cognomen. And I never thought of the YF cognomen, and gotta wonder what it really stands for or if it's some kind of Freudian slip.

Aside from an uninitiated public at large, the biggest problem is male car buyers who are absolutely clueless about the cars they're buying. If men actually knew how to service vehicles, they wouldn't buy 3/4 of the garbage out there. I can remember a time when car buying purchases were partially swayed by serviceability concerns, but no more because men are clueless. But men today are quite knowledgeable about skin care products, hair gels, and how to operate latest smart phones.

For the life of me, I cannot understand why car ads are located in the sports section... as if to imply it's men who read and know about sports also know about cars and that is probably the furthest from the truth with 3/4 or more of men.

But going back to self-sealing cans... probably not a bad idea because as most know, can taps pretty much require you use it or lose it... but why not let the free-market decide? If I want to go cheap and risk wasting material, shouldn't that be my business? Why does the government need to be involved in everything we do?

Joe

AutoCool on Wed August 29, 2012 2:37 AM

"Heavy Fines Or 1234 You Fools"

bohica2xo on Thu August 30, 2012 1:45 AM

When I find myself needing to tap a can of any kind I use the same tap for all of them. I side tap little cans. Great for flushing a fuel line too - side tap a can of carb cleaner with the hose hooked up to the line...

I expect to see people hauling cases of 134a cans out of Sam's Club to their cars with cali plates.
It already happens with water. That's right, water. A friend snags a half dozen cases of bottled water every trip. Because there is no eco-mafia tax on the bottles. Saves a few dollars on each case... then donates the empties to his kid's school & they collect the refund.

B.


-------------------------
"Among the many misdeeds of the British rule in India, history will look upon the act of depriving a whole nation of arms, as the blackest."
~ Mahatma Gandhi, Gandhi, An Autobiography, M. K. Gandhi, page 446.

JJM on Sat September 01, 2012 1:11 PM

I was going to recommend everyone use side taps on the California cans, but that would likely mean losing the $10 deposit, since the cans need to be returned undamaged. So the best bet is to just make sure the cans are returned "empty."

Many states (typically blue states) like these deposit programs because it brings them money, a hidden tax, since they get to escheat deposits on the unredeemed empties. Many people thing think these programs are cost free - pay the nickel deposit and get it back - but there are a lot more costs. For example, in NY there's a 3.5¢ handling fee that goes to the retailer, and then there are the pickup fees the recycler charges, which is another few pennies. 80% of unredeemed nickels goes to the state. So that nickel deposit ends up costing the bottler or manufacturer more than a nickel, and adds up to a almost a couple of dollars lost margin per case - which the idiot consumer pays.

And then of course, there's the rampant fraud in the system, plus the cross border shipments (as you describe) from non-deposit states. These programs are a mess, but they do create more make work jobs and bureaucracy.

When are the idiots in this country going to wake the hell up???

Joe

bohica2xo on Sat September 01, 2012 8:45 PM

A piece of masking tape across the pierce point with the word "Empty" written on it should solve that issue...

.

-------------------------
"Among the many misdeeds of the British rule in India, history will look upon the act of depriving a whole nation of arms, as the blackest."
~ Mahatma Gandhi, Gandhi, An Autobiography, M. K. Gandhi, page 446.

doctorbee on Mon September 24, 2012 12:03 PM

30 lb cans are cheap at www.ruralking.com

they also sell the smaller cans for like 5 bucks a can.

NickD on Tue September 25, 2012 7:22 AM

Seeing 12 oz cans of DuPont R-134a Suva on the shelves now in Wisconsin selling for $9.99 plus 5.5% sales tax. Kind of like those real old R-12 cans that have to be pierced to get anything out of them.

Do have some of those old top of the can piercers left from the 60's, don't even know if they will fit, tried to find can pierces on the shelves, but didn't see any. So I was wondering how one who is new and buys a can like that would get anything out of it.

Still sell those propane bottles for torches, getting expensive at $2.68, use to be 69 cents, but they have a special fitting on top with a Scharder Valve that seals pretty darn good. The pressure is about the same, so why can't they make a can like that for refrigerant? Any kind of can piercer will leak if you only half to use less than a can. These was even true back in the 60's before the EPA was even heard of. Being frugal like I am, started buying tanks, ha, wish now I purchased a ton of them, would be filthy rich today.

So why are they still using these same piercing cans with all their new rules and regulations? I have one thought on this subject as to why, they are idiots. One thing for sure, whatever kind of can they use is a hell of a lot more expensive to manufacturer than what it in it. And whatever it is, ends up in the trash can.

Matter of fact anything you buy today has more expensive throwaway packaging than what is in, every Monday morning have to haul bags and bags of it out, and city demands its all in clear plastic bags, another waste. They want to see if I am putting any weeds or grass clippings in there. Can't go to the hardware store and put a hand full of nails in a small paper bag anymore, all those damned blister packs that take longer to open than to use. Won't even get into putting recycled sewage water in plastic bottles, wait I think I just did.

Not only consumables are throwaway, practically anything we purchase, our appliances, all this electronic stuff, and even our automobiles. Wasn't that way when I was growing up.

mk378 on Tue September 25, 2012 1:04 PM

Nick, they're not the threaded top cans sold in the other 48 states? Those cans have a blank threaded boss in the top closure. You thread on a can tapper and it pierces through the center of the threaded part.