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New Cadillac XTS is to be the first with R-1234yf

NickD on Wed April 18, 2012 1:07 PM User is offline

That is if the EPA gives the final approval, not only for the refrigerant, but the servicing equipment as well. Honeywell and DuPont have a joint venture and already have built a plant in China, but the Chinese government is slow in giving them the documentation they need to start production. Also a lot of lawsuits going against Honeywell and DuPont upon their patent rights on this new refrigerant. The credibility of the patent is being questioned as well as the licensing cost to produce this refrigerant.

GM does have a contract to for Honeywell to supply enough refrigerant just for the Cadillac XTS, but sounds like they may not be able to supply it, just yet.

Estimated cost of this new refrigerant is $70.00 per pound, meaning a standard 30# cylinder would cost $2,100.00, Special servicing equipment each dealer would have to layout is $7,000.00.

Find it difficult to believe the EPA will approve it with their strong stance against HC's, but not dealing with little guys, dealing with the likes of DuPont and Honeywell. Even at that, full recovery of this refrigerant will be part of their law. In theory at least, R-1234yr does not have the global warming potential as R-134a.

As the great President Reagan said, "here we go again".

So far just a tiny handful of some European countries made use of R-1234yr mandatory since last year, some kind of European Community Regulation. No details on that.

Got this information from the latest issue of SAE Engineering, as usual, a very unbiased article. Did mention future development of CO2 systems is becoming history. Guess their is no profit in selling CO2, but that is just my opinion.

mk378 on Thu April 19, 2012 9:24 AM User is offline

The EPA does not regulate refrigerant safety (such as flammability), only environmental effects. DOT would decide if it is a safety hazard. Presently there is no federal rule against HC refrigerant in a car, but lots of state ones. CO2 operates at very high pressure (> 2000 psi high side) making system components like compressors and condensers heavy and/or expensive.

NickD on Thu April 19, 2012 12:24 PM User is offline

Could go back to R-12 and simple tube and fin condensers, even out of brass and repairable and cleanable. Never was blamed for global warming, and still insist it is biodegradable. So what if a little gets up into the ozone layer, breaks down, chlorine is never found anywhere, recombines and remains hidden. And a lot easier for other oxygen molecules to float up there to from new ozone. Providing on during the dark seasons experienced in the Antarctic because sun light is also needed for this process.

But what can you say when we are led by a bunch of idiots, and one in particular trying to become a billionaire from his BS.

Have no problems in recovering, that is, if there is anything to recover with the crap they are making today. Just the shear cost of refrigerant is reason to recover if you can, only longer 50 cents a can. Even when forced to drain a fuel tank to change a pump. No way am I going to dump 80 bucks worth of gas on the ground, get teed off if I even spill a drop.

How about paying 70 bucks a pound for this new refrigerant?

JJM on Thu April 19, 2012 9:43 PM User is offline

Leave it to GM... its idea of a flagship luxury vehicle is not one that has say 12 or 16 cylinders, or weighs 6,000 pounds, or is nearly 20 feet long... nah, its idea of a flagship vehicle is one that has environmentally friendly refrigerant, yeah that's the real definition of a flagship luxury vehicle. I hope Mercedes, BMW, and Lexus are listening... dump those V-8 engines in favor of environmentally friendly refrigerant, because that is, after all, what buyers of a luxury vehicle want.

My understanding is the new XTS won't have a V-8 engine, though it might have a hybrid version that has even more horsepower. Well it won't have a buyer in me without a V-8 engine when it comes time to replace my DTS... which by the way is already showing rust around the door edges... and I doubt it will have many other buyer as well. Why would someone spend $60-$70K for an XTS when they can get a CTS which is not much smaller and has the same V-6 for half the price? Didn't they learn anything from the 2005 and later STS fiasco?

In any event, this should be it now for refrigerants and the environment, right? For how ever many years I have left on this planet, I'll never ever have to worry about refrigerants and environment, since this new refrigerant has zero ODP and a GWP of 4, correct? This new stuff is safe for the planet, and we can now start solving some real problems in the world, instead of trying to reinvent the wheel over and over again, am I right? It's good to know here will finally be some stability in refrigerant technology for years to come.


bohica2xo on Sat April 28, 2012 2:20 PM User is offline

With those kinds of costs, that new caddy A/C better perform. A black car at 2pm in the sun, in Las Vegas, in August, after a 4 hour soak had better produce 40f vent air at full volume in 15 seconds after start up, at idle. It better have enough capacity to pull the interior down to comfortable within 4 minutes, at idle.

Of course it will not. It will be pure crap, with weak performance while they sort out the mistakes. Early adopters will get a royal screwing.


"Among the many misdeeds of the British rule in India, history will look upon the act of depriving a whole nation of arms, as the blackest."
~ Mahatma Gandhi, Gandhi, An Autobiography, M. K. Gandhi, page 446.

NickD on Sun April 29, 2012 6:17 AM User is offline

2004 Cavalier sports coupe just hit 100K miles, that car with my GMCard and all kinds of rebates I paid $7,300.00 for, new, no trade in.

When I first got the car, no freeplay on the clutch, took it to my Chevy dealer, installed a new master cylinder been good ever since. Was teed off after 36K miles both front upper strut bearings went, never greased. But didn't argue too much as new improved ones were 20 bucks each and easy to change.

At 55K, those Goodyear tires wore out, put on Dunlops and did a brake job, they have an 80K thread wear warranty, still in very good shape. At 70K, the weather strip on the mode door fell off, my wife forced it and bend the cable, new cable was 12 bucks, I made a plate for that mode door weather strip, problem free since then.

At 86K got check engine lamp evaporative codes, traced the problem to the gas filler tube, was all rusty. Dealer told me a common problem with road salt, wanted 160 bucks for a new filler tube because of gas leaks. Got teed off and reported that to the NSTHA. But when I removed that tube, was just minor surface rust, sanded and repainted it using Permatex non-hardening gasket maker on the joints, been good ever since.

At 90K finally replaced the drive belt for the first time, but don't know why, old one looked perfectly good with all of the original print on it. At 98K, that band that holds on the rear muffler rusted off letting the muffler hang. Took a piece of strap steel and riveted that on that small spot, splashed some black paint on it and slapped it back on. Rest of the original stainless steel system was in great shape after over eight years of driving in salt.

When I picked up our new Cruze last December, dealer really wanted that car, looks like a brand new car, worth at least $7,500.00, said no way could I replace that car for that kind of money. Letting my stepdaughter use that car, tried to find her a used one, could find nothing but junk, even for ten thousand bucks.

Decide to get rid of my 92 DeVille saw rust spots, mostly all surface underneath, but did get $2,000 for a trade in, dealer said he was going to auction it off, see it on their lot now with a $3,000 price tag on it. Had to replace most of the AT cooling, brake, and fuel lines on that thing. Cavalier appears all these components were plated.

Cruze isn't really my kind of car, has power everything on it, but is extremely quiet, with Lordstown gas, averaged 44 mpg, but with the Wisconsin reformulated winter crap we are forced to by, that dropped to 38 mpg. Have 3,600 miles on it so far, only problem so far, someone forgot to plug in the USB connector. Just hope it is as good as my Cavalier.

Wife loves those electrically heated seats, thought those were a joke, but that heat sure feels good on my worn out back, so I am using those too. At 18 years old, was impressed with an all white tan leather interior Rolls Royce with an outrageous price tag of 9,000 bucks. So that is what I got with our new Cruze, all white with a tan leather interior.

I am very happy with a four banger living in an era loaded with Home Security cops all over the place. With that 86 CID turbo charged engine, suppose to do 0-60 in 8.8 seconds with a top speed of 110 mph, so still can get into plenty of trouble with it.

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