Automotive Air Conditioning Information Forum (Archives)

pippo on Fri September 09, 2011 4:08 PM

People,

One of my cars is a 2001 honda civic 2001, EX. Finally figured out the grinding noise is my comp (whew, for a while, I suspected the transmission!).

It has been going on for say, 2-3 months. Still blows very cold. What would you do ?

Thanks.

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TRB on Fri September 09, 2011 7:52 PM

I have yet to fond an area where grinding noises on a vehicle were a good thing. That includes brakes.

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Cussboy on Fri September 09, 2011 8:14 PM

Quote
Originally posted by: pippo
People, One of my cars is a 2001 honda civic 2001, EX. Finally figured out the grinding noise is my comp (whew, for a while, I suspected the transmission!).

It has been going on for say, 2-3 months. Still blows very cold. What would you do ?

I'd (1) stop using the AC immediately, if not sooner !!!
(2) I'd replace the compressor and receiver-drier, and backflush the lines and condenser with solvent from receiver-drier backwards, then dry. Grinding means you're getting metal particles broken off and pushed through the system.

Aug. 1994 I bought my Mazda in similar condition, and replaced parts as above. I knew noise from compressor is bad.

iceman2555 on Fri September 09, 2011 8:35 PM

The difference between the compressor on the 94 Mazda and the compressor utilized on the Honda are two entirely different units.
If the repair is to be completed and you wish to do it only once....obtain a new scroll compressor, new condenser, new rec/drier/filter and a TXV. Recover the refrigerant, remove the evaporator/txv assembly. Flush this system very throughly. Flush all lines. Replace the TXV (prefer the OE txv to aftermarket). Add app. 2-3 oz of lube into the evaporator core. Install the new txv and cap the lines. Install the evap into the vehicle. Add app 1/2 oz of lube to the new rec/drier/filter. Add 2 oz of lube to the suction side of the compressor. Stand the compressor upright on the drive (in a vertical position). Great way to pre lube the bearings in the front of the compressor. Total amount of lube added to the system should not exceed 5 oz. Install the condenser and compressor. Install the rec/drier. Please utilize new orings. Arrange someone with the corrrect equipment to evac and recharge the vehicle. This system requires 17.25 to 19.36 oz of refrigerant (lets say 17.5 to 19.5 oz). You will never get this precise with cans....never. An undercharge of less than 2-3 oz will result in a repeat failure....and guess what...ya get to do it all over again. Take a few short cuts....do it again....guaranteed.
This system, similar to the legendary CRV requires very specific parts and repair procedures. See it day in and day out. Only one way....DO IT ALL !!! DO IT RIGHT !!! DO IT ONCE !!!
Good luck with your repair.
Oh, yes....may as well drive it till it fails...does not change the repair...still gotta do it all....the damage to the system has already occurred. Only problem...if the compressor locks...and it will....it may take the belt with it...hate to see you standed...so go ahead and repair the darn thing!

Hey TRB...spell check still does not work......!!!!

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The strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government.
Thomas Jefferson

mk378 on Fri September 09, 2011 9:06 PM

Is it noisy all the time the engine is running, or only when the compressor is engaged? In the former case you may just need a pulley bearing or idler bearing. Remove the belt and spin the pulleys by hand to check for bad bearings.

Edited: Fri September 09, 2011 at 9:07 PM by mk378

TRB on Fri September 09, 2011 11:48 PM

Got an email off to the host.

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pippo on Sat September 10, 2011 8:19 AM

Big thanks, people. Im amazed at how much help one gets here. To answer some above questions:

1) It is noisy ONLY when comp is engaged. Guess that means it is not just the pulley bearing, eh?

2) Iceman, you say to remover the evaporator. Geez, youre giving me a lot of work...LOL. Seriously, does that mean on my civic 2001 EX that I have to yank the entire dashboard? And why should I yank the evap- I mean, is there a way to flush the evap through the lines from engine bay (or other way)?

I will agree with the point that might as well drive/use it for just a tad longer with the FL heat, but maybe tackle it BEFORE the comp burns the serpentine belt. Kinda tricky to do. I need to get a manual on this ac system- maybe ebay has the CD shop manual, anybody know?

Thanks!!

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beware of the arrival

mk378 on Sat September 10, 2011 9:43 AM

The 2001 was the first Civic where the dash has to be removed to R&R evaporator, but it has a block-type TXV on the engine side of the firewall. After removing the TXV, the evaporator core can be flushed in place.

Edited: Sat September 10, 2011 at 9:44 AM by mk378

pippo on Sat September 10, 2011 11:37 AM

Quote
Originally posted by: mk378
The 2001 was the first Civic where the dash has to be removed to R&R evaporator, but it has a block-type TXV on the engine side of the firewall. After removing the TXV, the evaporator core can be flushed in place.

Wow, too much! I am sooooo glad. Its just like the Chrysler H block, I guess. Looks like this is looking much easier already.

Oh, tech question: I read somewhere that the new type "high efficiency condensers" , unlike the old fin and tube type, are best thrown out as they really cant be cleaned by flushing very well. They said the same with evaporators. Is that true? If not, why is it we can flush out an evap and not the condenser?

Thaks!


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JJM on Sat September 10, 2011 12:00 PM

I dunno... I tend to take a different view. With the compressor grinding, the system is likely finished, so the compressor, condenser, receiver, TXV, and any lines with filters or mufflers will need to be replaced and everything else thoroughly flushed. But the system is still working. Unless you can't survive a few days without A/C, when the system does eventually bite the dust, you're still going to need to replace the compressor, condenser, receiver, TXV, and any lines with filters or mufflers and thoroughly flush everything else, so why not run it to the bitter end?

If the system works for another year or two, you're way ahead. Besides, you might not keep the car in another year or two. What if the tranny or head gaskets blows, or the vehicle is involved in a collision, and you've already spent this money to fix the A/C that still is working and might have kept working?

I probably would do the same thing on my own cars... if I know I'm going to need to replace everything either way, why rush? I'll use another car for the few days the A/C is out.

Joe

When considering your next auto A/C purchase, please consider the site that supports you: www.ACKits.com

iceman2555 on Sat September 10, 2011 2:56 PM

Thanks for the heads up on the TXV change with the Honda...had a serious 'gaseous mind expulsion'. Remove the TXV and flush the evap. By all means flush the evap...this is a location for residual lubricants to stabalize and with the very light lube charge rate...this possible over lube over charge may present some serious problems.
Agreement with running till it fails....the down side...this compressors will lock a clutch very rapidly and may result in belt failure also. Limp home mode is one thing...but hate 'limping for miles and miles.
Evaporators are not typically subjected to the same debris contaminations as the condenser. Although when pressurs equalize after a compressor failure it is possible to see debris in the outlet of the evap. Rare...but occurs...that is why many suggest suction filter screens. It is labor intensive...and many may disagree...but each system should be flushed and cleaned after a compressor failure. This is especially true with later model systems as the lube charge rate decreases in volumn. Too much lubricant result in the same bearing failure as too little lube. They conditions may result in premature bearing failure. The same condition can result when the incorrect viscoity of lubricant is used....PAG 100 instead of PAG 46. POE's used as a universal lubricant....does not always work the way one would thing.

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The strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government.
Thomas Jefferson

pippo on Sat September 10, 2011 3:37 PM

OK, people, I think I will wait, heck, at least until the season gets coler. Late November, if it holds. meanwhile, time to search for a civic CD online.

Oh, you said get a scroll comp. Is the original a scroll? Whats the difference, if any? I know- its more ac talk.....LOL

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beware of the arrival

iceman2555 on Sat September 10, 2011 4:40 PM

The OE unit is a scroll mfg'd by Sanden.

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The strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government.
Thomas Jefferson

pippo on Sat September 10, 2011 5:50 PM

Quote
Originally posted by: iceman2555
The OE unit is a scroll mfg'd by Sanden.

OK, thanks, good to know this. Have a good Sat night.

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beware of the arrival

TRB on Sat September 10, 2011 8:33 PM

All depends on what's grinding. If the clutch is grinding I would not wait to address the issue. Compressor will rumble/growl more than grind when they have life left in them.

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Contact: ACKits.com

pippo on Sun September 11, 2011 11:13 AM

Quote
Originally posted by: TRB
All depends on what's grinding. If the clutch is grinding I would not wait to address the issue. Compressor will rumble/growl more than grind when they have life left in them.

Hmmmm, now you got me thinking more. Now that you mention it, yes, it is more like a growl vs grind. Deep growl. Guess thats good news(?). Still, will probably wait- for cooler weather/more mileage.

So, growling means whats happening inside the comp, TRB?

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TRB on Sun September 11, 2011 4:30 PM

Any growling or grinding from a compressor is not good. Some designs tend to growl a little more than others. Ice can elaborate more on this if he likes.

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Contact: ACKits.com

pippo on Wed October 19, 2011 7:51 PM

OK, heres an update: cool weather is a commin. Coincidentally, ac now blows cool-warm-cool-warm...... This has to be it. Im thinking maybe within a few days is a good time to start the project. I will remove the comp, and TXV in firewall and dryer. Think I should also remove and get new condenser (I understand that is the best policy, but much more work)? I understand condensers cant really be cleaned/flushed out.....

Thanks!

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beware of the arrival

Edited: Wed October 19, 2011 at 7:52 PM by pippo

pippo on Thu October 20, 2011 4:45 AM

oops- sorry, just re read the above posts advising new condenser. Got it.

WHY is it such a big deal if I dont get the exact amount of gas in the system? Why would say, 1-2 oz of the exact ruin the system again? I dont get that. Yes, maybe less effective cooling, but the exact amount of gas within 1-2 oz??

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HECAT on Thu October 20, 2011 8:00 AM

Countless hours have gone into developing the precise charge amount that will provide for adequate cooling and proper return lubrication to the compressor. Many systems will cool better with a little undercharge, but this comes at the expense of proper lubricant flow. With a leaking system it is often stated that it cooled better than ever just before it completely stopped.

The importance of flushing the evap is that in the above low charge scenario (as the oil stops its forward progress) it will pool in the evap. This is why we often find no oil draining from a removed compressor. The most common mistake here is to assume it had no oil in it, and put a new full charge of oil in on top of the oil remaining in the evap. Now you have an oil overcharge and oil logged heat exchangers which starts the "chasing of the tail" scenario when the pressures and temps are not within spec.

"Cannot flush the condenser" is a wives tail, but is true if you are trying to pour in and blow out a flush or using the "poof" can method (aerosols and little flush guns). It can be done, but itt does take some diligence and specialty equipment. Unless you are an A/C specialist, you will often not wish to purchase specialty equipment, and condenser replacement is a prudent decision; given the cost and ease of access. Now if this condenser was a very expensive component of a test stand, or an aircraft; you would be talking to me about specialized equipment capable.

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FLUSHING TECHNICAL PAPER vs2.pdf 

Edited: Thu October 20, 2011 at 9:58 AM by HECAT

NickD on Thu October 20, 2011 10:25 AM

"1) It is noisy ONLY when comp is engaged. Guess that means it is not just the pulley bearing, eh? "

That says it all, if you hear a loud squeal, quickly turn it off depending on what else that belt drives. Never know with Honda anymore, use to be a great little car, but these cars are noted for a minor oil leak in that evaporator block, darn thing only holds about 5 ounces.

Just read an article on the 2011 Honda Civic in the SAE Engineering, sure blew it with the 2011 model, very low rated, so they got back to the drawing board to make needed improvements in the 2012 model. Too bad you don't learn that until after the fact. Sure saw a drastic decrease in Honda in around 1991 when the Japanese devaluated the
American buck. Until then, my entire family was driving Hondas. Still all about making profits. Still have a high resale value, just goes to show how dumb people are.

pippo on Thu October 20, 2011 4:45 PM

Thanks, hecat and nick. Since I dont have equipment, new cond is the way to go. But geez- just came back from peeking inside the hood of the car with more of a "time to study this" mindset, and wow- I dont think I have the courage!!

I have done 3 other cars before this no problem (Im not a pro, just a home guy) but cripe, Im scared. No room to even get your hand in there edgewise. I may have to give it to a guy I know here thats a good ac guy, dang. Yes, I would like to tackle this but these civics are so tight, no room to move your hand in there at all, it appears. Feedback appreciated as always, people.

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NickD on Thu October 20, 2011 4:53 PM

Could try injecting a couple of ounces of oil, would only use Honda oil in a Honda, may quiet it down a bit Scroll compressors are a bit more forgiving than the piston kind.

I am 6'2" and weigh 200 pounds, tell me about tight.

pippo on Sat October 22, 2011 9:12 AM

Quote
Originally posted by: NickD
Could try injecting a couple of ounces of oil, would only use Honda oil in a Honda, may quiet it down a bit Scroll compressors are a bit more forgiving than the piston kind.



I am 6'2" and weigh 200 pounds, tell me about tight.

OK, Nick, but since we know it has to have a leak, (since now, it blows cold/warm/cold/warm), how would simply injecting some oil help? isnt the main suspect a busted/shot comp (seal, etc)?

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ice-n-tropics on Sun October 23, 2011 8:48 PM

Scrolls are noisy with abnormally low suction pressure associated with leaks which also cause clutch off cycles due to cycling of the TPS (thermal cycling switch).
hotrodac
(Check out The Rodder's Journal Issue #52 about book "How To Air Condition Your Hot Rod")

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