Automotive Air Conditioning Information Forum (Archives)

cpab on Tue February 08, 2011 10:27 PM

Year: 2001
Make: Ford
Model: AU Falcon
Engine Size: 4L
Refrigerant Type: R134a
Country of Origin: Australia

G'day,

I'm looking for some tips to track down a problem with my aircon.
It just stops cooling, seemingly, when it feels like it. It's very much a nuisance on a hot day, which of course are the days when it's most noticeable.
I'm a semi-retired boilermaker. I bought the car for economy reasons; we don't have much cash to throw around. This model of Fords' was unpopular here because of the body shape, so it was cheap.
Our federal and state governments were offering subsidies of $2,000 and $1,000 respectively to convert to lpg. So after the queues died down we got the conversion. All it cost was $37 for the inspection by the licencing department. I did a comparison run to Geraldton, where my daughters live - 250 miles. Went up there on gas and came back on petrol. Gas $31, Petrol $70. So it is rarely run on petrol, these days.
We've had the car 6 years and the problem with the aircon has always been there, even before the gas conversion.
The first summer I got a mobile aircon tech to check it out, this was before the gas conversion; he couldn't find a fault.
Following year, local Ford dealership serviced and regassed the system. A month later it was stopping cooling at various times.
Following year regassed again with dye; no leaks found, but was still stopping cooling occasionally.
Following year had it checked thoroughly, the tech showed me some metal fines in a small gauze filter, but didn't specify any problem it could mean. He regassed again.
Had it checked again at xmas 2010 and tech said he wouldn't charge me because he couldn't find fault.
When I asked him for any codes from the diagnostic, he gave me P1463. From this I found Aircon Pressure Sensor Insufficient Pressure Change.
I decided to take a chance on replacing the pressure sensor/switch. I've located the part and I've arranged with an aircon tech to degas, change the part and regas my system.
Since then I've been reading that the receiver/dryer/accumulator ought to be replaced, which I will now take on board and replace.
As most of these local techs haven't found the reason for my problem, I thought I'd get a broader range of views. I've read a few posts by some of your senior members and respect their knowledge. I am willing to learn more, but just need a few quick tips to get me underway.
I am going to go ahead with degas, replace pressure sensor/switch and accumulator/receiver/dryer and regas, but before I do, is there any other part I should address while my system is down?
Any advice will be gratefully received.

Regards

Chris B

bohica2xo on Wed February 09, 2011 2:42 AM

Quote
Originally posted by: cpab
G'day,



I'm looking for some tips to track down a problem with my aircon.

It just stops cooling, seemingly, when it feels like it. It's very much a nuisance on a hot day, which of course are the days when it's most noticeable.

Following year, local Ford dealership serviced and regassed the system. A month later it was stopping cooling at various times.


Uh huh. Classic clutch gap issue symptoms.


Quote

regassed again with dye

He regassed again.


Lots of "gas" - same result...

Quote

Had it checked again at xmas 2010 and tech said he wouldn't charge me because he couldn't find fault.


At least he was honest


Quote

When I asked him for any codes from the diagnostic, he gave me P1463. From this I found Aircon Pressure Sensor Insufficient Pressure Change.



Another big red arrow pointing at a clutch gap issue. There will be no delta P if the compressor shaft does not spin when commanded.


Quote

I decided to take a chance on replacing the pressure sensor/switch. I've located the part and I've arranged with an aircon tech to degas, change the part and regas my system.

Since then I've been reading that the receiver/dryer/accumulator ought to be replaced, which I will now take on board and replace.

As most of these local techs haven't found the reason for my problem, I thought I'd get a broader range of views. I've read a few posts by some of your senior members and respect their knowledge. I am willing to learn more, but just need a few quick tips to get me underway.

I am going to go ahead with degas, replace pressure sensor/switch and accumulator/receiver/dryer and regas, but before I do, is there any other part I should address while my system is down?

Any advice will be gratefully received.


Before you belt-feed a pile of new parts into that car, take the time to check the clutch gap. Many can be adjusted with simple hand tools. We do not have the "Falcon" here, at least not since about 1969. I have no reference material that will tell me which compressor you have. If you can use your local resources to get us a compressor make & model associated with your car, we can probably give you more specific clutch gap adjustment procedures.

The gap should be larger than .1mm, but if it is more than 0.5mm it should be adjusted. They will usually begin to exhibit your symptoms above 0.8mm with startling regularity regardless of brand.

B.



Regards



Chris B



-------------------------
"Among the many misdeeds of the British rule in India, history will look upon the act of depriving a whole nation of arms, as the blackest."
~ Mahatma Gandhi, Gandhi, An Autobiography, M. K. Gandhi, page 446.

cpab on Wed February 09, 2011 6:15 PM

G'day bohica2xo,

Thanks for that. It gives me hope for a simple cheap fix.
I have come across clutch gap in the forums, but without experience I couldn't assess it's effect.
I'll check the compressor type on the car. Going by some parts sales on the net, it is possibly/probably a Sanden CMP023.
This is the part being offered for the AU Ford Falcon.
http://www.autoacforum.com/forumimages/Capture_02102011_003831.jpg

cpab on Wed February 09, 2011 6:18 PM

Another image may indicate the clutch type
http://www.autoacforum.com/forumimages/Capture_02102011_003750.jpg

mk378 on Wed February 09, 2011 10:28 PM

Can you see / reach the compressor while it is mounted in the car? With the engine stopped the clutch will of course be disengaged and you can check the gap. If the gap between the clutch plate and the pulley is more than the 0.5 mm it needs to be adjusted.

cpab on Wed February 09, 2011 11:59 PM

Good on you mk378

Having been pointed in this direction by bohica2xo, I've been frantically reading up on the matter.
My wife uses the car, so I'll mark it down as my first chore Saturday morning.

Thanks for the advice. I'll post my findings.
Regards
Chris

bohica2xo on Thu February 10, 2011 12:12 AM

Chris:

Your first link is a pic of an FS10 compressor. Very common on Ford vehicles.

This is a link to a pictorial of how to adjust the clutch gap on an FS10. FS-10 compressor clutch adjustment

In 2001 here in the US, the 4.0L fords were in Explorers - and mounted the FS10. Look HERE

No special tools are usually necessary, just an 8mm or 10mm socket will usually get the job done. You can do it in the driveway.

B.

-------------------------
"Among the many misdeeds of the British rule in India, history will look upon the act of depriving a whole nation of arms, as the blackest."
~ Mahatma Gandhi, Gandhi, An Autobiography, M. K. Gandhi, page 446.

cpab on Sat February 12, 2011 5:03 AM

G'day again all,

Thankyou very much bohica2xo & mk378 for your valuable wisdom. Your diagnosis was spot on, as you knew it would be. Now if my workmanship can be relied on, you've saved me a heap of money.
When I got the end plate off, there was only a single shim/washer in there. It was about 1.25mm thick.
Just my luck I thought; then thought again, hey I'm quite a few dollars in front here, I'm very lucky to be where I am, so I scoured my little storage shed for a suitable washer. Only found one and luck would have it, it was about half the thickness of the original. I had to ream the center a bit and filed each side nice & flat.
So, it's in.

http://www.autoacforum.com/forumimages/Before & After.jpg

I've added the before & after views. It was about 1mm when I got to it. The feeler gauges didn't add up too accurately(Just cheapies) I think it was about .66mm on the right side and about 1.2mm on the left as you see it.
The gauges that are shown in the photo are in the after shot, about .26mm on the left and .381mm on the right. They're the nearest sizes I could match.
Do you think that will do, or should I get some proper shims(and some decent feeler gauges)?

You wouldn't believe, it's run without a hitch for a week. I'll come back to the post in a couple of weeks and update it.
In the meantime I'll keep an eye on the forum.
Thanks alot again you blokes.

Best Regards
Chris

NickD on Sat February 12, 2011 6:20 AM

Us Yanks stuck with the English system of measurements, even though we rebelled against the British. But you in like manner you British adopted the French metric system even though you were at war with the French for hundreds of years. In automotive, our congress likewise adopted the French metric system in the early 80's, because they thought the Japanese, that also adopted the French metric system, would start to buy our vehicles. But in reality they wanted the steering wheel placed on the right hand side of the vehicle just like the British do it, so they didn't end up buying our cars either.

Ironic that the Japanese adopted the French metric system, but the British placement of the steering wheel. My conclusion to all this, is that we live in a screwed up world. But us yanks still tend to think in the English system of measurements.

Translated, we like to shoot for a 20 mil clutch pulley gap, that is also 0.020", not too many are familiar with the mil equally 0.001 inches, because this unit of measurement is in the old English system of measurements. But no greater than 30 mils as the magnetic force that pulls the hub in decreases by the square of this so-called clutch gap. In metric terms, the translates into 0.5 mean to no more than 0.75 mm. One millimeter equals 0.03937 inches, but for all practical purposes with this range of measurements, 0.040 inches is close enough, so half of that would equal 0.020 inches.

Probably noted that the hub of your clutch is spring loaded. So if you stick in a feeler gauge on one side, say a bit two wide, the hub acts like a see-saw, closing up on the diametrically opposite side. Yet another factor, rare to find a clutch hub that is exactly parallel to the pulley face, but is does conformed to the pulley face once engaged.

But using two feeler gauges diametrically opposed is the most accurate way to measure this clutch gap where the blade thickness is identical. Takes a bit of experience for the blade drag, as you can jam in two way oversized blades and get very inaccurate readings.

Also have a measurement called TIR or total indicator runout, in this instance, only the TIR of the pulley face is measured, should be within, pardon my terminology, 1 mil maximum, the effect of excessive TIR on the pulley face is pulley wobble, not spinning true.

Yet another factor is that the clutch coil is composed of a copper coil that has a rather high positive temperature coefficient. As the coil temperature goes up, so does its resistance that decreases the current weakening this magnetic force.

I normally don't fool with all these measurements, just look at it, set the gap my eye as close as possible leaving a tad extra for contraction and make sure it properly engages over temperature. Well, my indexed fingernail is also a half a mm thick, use that as well.

Ideally the goal of the clutch gap is to keep it as small as possible, but not that small where the hub rubs on the pulley when disengaged. Also have to keep in mind the vast ranged of temperatures this gap experiences from subzero weather to well beyond the boiling point of water, gap tends to increase with increased temperature. So if set at hot temperatures, can rub at the cold ones.

cpab on Sat February 12, 2011 11:03 AM

Thanks for that info NickD.
Regards
Chris

ice-n-tropics on Sat February 12, 2011 9:27 PM

The air gap should be the same all around the 360 degree edge within about .010" max. (ref. axial TIR). OEMs keep the air gap within .005". This can be adjusted by hitting on the front plate with a hammer (less) or under the front plate using a screwdriver (more) near the offending leaf spring.
General overview of clutch designs:
Clutch engineering endurance tests measure "Shaft Speed Rise Time" (SSRT) which is the time required for the compressor shaft rpm to match the pulley rpm. The shorter this time, the less revolutions of friction surface slip and wear. The best design incorporates a friction material bonded into the friction surface as Denso has done so well. This together with a torrodial shaped rubber damper (donut shaped) in the armature has 300% or more engagements before a signifigant increase in the SSRT as compared to a leaf spring armature and non friction material clutch.
Endurance tests can predict cycles to failure by monitoring SSRT because the clutch will burn and fail soon after the SSRT has a signifigant increase.
The leaf spring design has a residual spring force to overcome before the air gap can start to decrease, therefore the SSRT is greater for this design from the get-go.
hotrodac


-------------------------
Isentropic Efficiency=Ratio of Theoretical Compression Energy/Actual Energy.
AMAZON.com: How To Air Condition Your Hot Rod

Edited: Sat February 12, 2011 at 9:36 PM by ice-n-tropics

cpab on Sun February 13, 2011 8:43 PM

G'day ice-n-tropics,

I really appreciate all the advice. The fine detail really ices the cake.(pun intended)
I need some hot days now to really test it over the next couple of weeks.

Thanks again you guys.
Regards
Chris

NickD on Mon February 14, 2011 6:38 AM

Ha, if this compressor is located where I think it is, a hammer is out of the question, think a hammer has got to be swung, but not even enough space to even jam it up in there.

But this one looks pretty clean, gather they don't use road salt in Australia, good reason to move there. With leaf spring hubs, have to remove them, typically give them a bath in a 20-80 solution of hydrochloric acid, then coat with silicone grease, but not on the friction surface.

Only real small gaps I am familiar with were on those Ford rubberized hubs where it take a man and a strong boy to close them, has to be under 9 mils. Didn't know about reaching engine speed checks, but must be measured in milliseconds.

cpab on Tue February 15, 2011 11:29 AM

G'day NickD,
You're right about no road salt here.
I'm in Perth Western Australia, built on sand-plain. Temperature about the same as California.
We're 1,700 miles from the next closest state capital - Adelaide in South Australia.
We don't get snow(just the odd occasion in 2 or 3 years in the ranges near the south coast).
We don't get rain during the summer generally. It's not unusual to go 3 months without rain. We only get rain in winter and lately we haven't had much of that.
500 miles north of here had floods just before xmas and just before the floods over in the eastern states.
We get the odd frost. We get lots of fires. 39C today.
37C tomorrow, so the ac clutch will be tested when we drive down to my Mam's place. Have to get some of Mam's bacon and egg pie.
46 years ago, when we came to Australia, there were 9 of us; now there's more than fifty and they all go to Mam's for her bacon and egg pie.

'evening all

Chris

http://www.autoacforum.com/forumimages/Ford.jpg

Attached is the Ford in it's better days.

cpab on Wed February 16, 2011 2:22 AM

G'day all,

I cannot thank you all enough. We've just got back from a 150 mile run to Mam's place in 37C heat and the ac performed brilliantly. Never missed a beat.
Another good reason for someone like you NickD to move here would be plenty of work, cos there's nobody here could fix my ac in 5 years.
From 12,000 miles away you guys could smell it. I didn't tell the story of my problem any different, over 5 years; my wife's just been through the receipts box.
The story is on the Ford dealership invoice along with the degas regas etc.
In 30 years of airconditioned cars, this is the first problem I've had, but to find it was such a basic problem solving check, especially for the symptoms, I'm angry at myself for not picking it up sooner.
I think it's disgusting that not one of the people I've told this problem to here in Perth, has picked this up.
Would it be alright or appropriate for me to copy your posts and show them to the Ford Dealership here and the other so called auto aircon specialists here?
I feel like taking the case to consumer affairs here as well as the trades training center.
Sorry, I'm getting out the frustration of $1,000 worth of wasted money.
I'll get some proper shims in the next few days and set the clutch gap properly.

Best Regards

Chris

bohica2xo on Wed February 16, 2011 3:36 AM

You are welcome Chris.

Feel free to share any posts I make on the internet... I tend to piss people off anyway - you could not make it any worse!

The problem lies with what you call the "Trades Training Center". An honest mistake is still a mistake - or as my dad always said "a cheerful idiot is still an idiot". If the mechanics do not know any better, it is their training.

Glad things worked out for you.

B.

-------------------------
"Among the many misdeeds of the British rule in India, history will look upon the act of depriving a whole nation of arms, as the blackest."
~ Mahatma Gandhi, Gandhi, An Autobiography, M. K. Gandhi, page 446.

NickD on Wed February 16, 2011 4:42 AM

We each have our different talents, I know nothing of preparing a snake for dinner, but do know how to kill one. Someone else would have to prepare it, they can also eat it too. I will settle for a peanut butter sandwich.

cpab on Wed February 16, 2011 7:51 AM

Thanks Bohica 2xo & NickD.
I feel like doing as I ranted, but I probably won't.
I've no doubt that I'm going to mention it if I have to meet with any of these people in the future.
Next job; pull out the whole dash in our Jackaroo(Isuzu Trooper) to find out the problem with the heater.
We want to go touring with our caravan this winter(your summer) and some mornings can be a bit cold.

Regards
Chris

bohica2xo on Wed February 16, 2011 11:44 AM

Chris:

What year is the Trooper? There is a pretty good chance someone here has had that dash out already & can give you some tips. Post the vehicle info & your questions in a new thread with the year & Trooper in the title (so it will be searchable) and see what shows up.

Sometimes it is really worth the 15 bucks to buy the online Mitchell subscription for a specific vehicle too.

B.

-------------------------
"Among the many misdeeds of the British rule in India, history will look upon the act of depriving a whole nation of arms, as the blackest."
~ Mahatma Gandhi, Gandhi, An Autobiography, M. K. Gandhi, page 446.

cpab on Sat February 19, 2011 11:21 AM

G'day Bo,
Thankyou for your consideration. The Trooper is a 2001 model.
Well, the Jackaroo Trooper, I'd better call it the Isuzu, otherwise I'll confuse everybody, is another one of my economical buys.
We set up the Ford on gas to tow the caravan, but after a run up to my daughter's in Karratha, just under 1,000 miles each way, we found the price of gas became too high the further you get from civilisation. It wasn't always available either. So we decided that a diesel 4WD is the best way to tow round Australia.
They call us the grey nomads here; are the old retirees called the same in the states?
This Isuzu got a bit of a bad reputation, because the engine is high tech and not too many mechanics know how to fix it. The engine is a 3.0L Turbo(4JX1 3.0 TDI), so you can get them about half the price of other 4WDs.
They don't have this motor over your way, but they have it here and England. I don't know why you don't have it over there, because I believe the technology it uses was first developed by Caterpillar. It uses high oil pressure to inject the diesel, about 5,000psi.
It tows the 'van and you wouldn't know it was there if you didn't look back to make sure.
Last year she came up with a big problem to do with the seals in the injectors and sleeves. $3,000 is about the average cost for Holden Dealership to fix.
I got a pdf workshop manual(3,600 pages) and joined the forums(England and Australia). The seals cost about $60, but just in case, I bought a set of 4 new sleeves $300.
I feel I can handle her around Australia now. Then the heater let go shortly after. I thought I might be able to pull the dashboard apart on the passenger side and still drive it, but when I got about half way through the job, I realised there were no shortcuts, so I stuck it all back together,(5 screws and 2 nuts left-over isn't too bad). It is a nuisance job; not what you'd call difficult, but still a big chore.
When I get to do the job, I'll take notes and photos as I go.(Might even find holes for 5 extra screws.)
I bought it, so I gotta fix it.
By the way the aircon works fine.(touch wood)

The Ford aircon is great. We've got our confidence back in it.

Best Regards

Chris

cpab on Wed March 09, 2011 6:34 AM

G'day all,

Sorry to bring this one back up the list, but I had a failure today.
She's run real good for a couple of weeks and as I said, we'd got our confidence back that the aircon works normally.
I know that I caused it when I floored the pedal to beat someone into a single lane. Bloomin car responded about as fast as me walking.
Anyway as we got up to cruising speed on the freeway, the aircon packed up.
35C day, so we would have liked it to behave itself. When we got to the end of our freeway leg down at Mam's, the aircon came back on, but was subdued.
I'm guessing that the clutch is slipping again, moreso with more revs. We haven't been on the freeway for a couple of weeks, so obviously living on false evidence as far as the aircon goes.
I was going to get some proper shims for the clutch and set it at precisely .16mm gap all round. Is this ok? Thing is I was hoping it would be a next summer job.
I guess-timated the gap at about .3mm, when I set it with an old washer, but maybe something's changed.

Comment if you want guys, but I was just posting this as I said I would. I probably won't get around to fixing it for a couple of weeks; getting a knee replacement on Saturday.
Hope the wife doesn't get too mad at me, she has to come down the freeway to the hospital. Hope the weather stays cool.

Regards

Chris