Automotive Air Conditioning Information Forum (Archives)

areonic1 on Mon July 19, 2010 5:30 AM

Year: 1993
Make: Ford
Model: Explorer
Engine Size: 4.0
Refrigerant Type: 134A
Country of Origin: United States

Sorry for the post being so long, thought maybe the more info I give, more it might help. I’m going to go down the line from start to where I am now.
I bought a 1993 Ford Explorer already 134A retro, the person said the only thing wrong was the AC clutch. Searched online how to test the clutch, found out the clutch worked. Filled it with Freon, turned the car off, it was leaking out of the pulley shaft. Bought a new compressor, put it on, started to fill it up. Didn’t have a gauge so I filled it until the clutch stayed engaged. Started blowing cold, as soon as I put a load on the engine, either put in gear or put gas on to 1500rpms, the high pressure safety valve blows and lets all the Freon out, tried it again, did the same thing. Now, I go buy orface tube, dryer/accumulator, and swap compressor for new one. Paid shop to put it in, vacuum/refill system. They had the same issue, couldn’t get it to work, told me I had a leak and it would cost a lot more to fix. Took it to different shop, he told me I didn’t have a leak. Went to 4 different shops, and there was no consistency what so ever in what’s wrong with it, everyone had a different story so now I’m doing it myself, $900 later with no working AC. Alright so I take the entire system apart, remove all lines, spray brake cleaner and then air compress the lines out for 15mins to make sure nothing else is coming out.
Alright, so I found someone to let me use manifold gauges after filling it up, and it seems the High sides pressure is off the charts around 400psi, and really really hot. BUT, if I spray the water hose on the condenser itself, the entire AC system changes how it acts, blows cold air, pressures drop, and it seems to run normal until the water runs off. Right now what happens is, the clutch stays on during idle, but as soon as you put a load, it kicks the clutch off, I’m assuming because too much pressure. Driving down the road does not help, it still kicks in and out every 3-5 seconds. I do not have any leaks either. Also, one mechanic said the clutch on my fan was bad, I compared that with someone with the exact same car, with a working AC and mine worked actually a little better.

Is there any way I can test/check each part/hose because I’ve already wasted so much money and my family is not in the situation to be able to blow wasted money right now. I keep wanting to try a condenser but just not too sure if there’s a way to tell if that’s it.

From my understanding, this is a list of parts, and they’re situation:
Compressor-Bought new one
Pipe with half coke can filter from compressor to condenser-cleaned with brake cleaner, the sprayed with air compressor
condenser-sprayed air through, but air came out alot less powerfull then going in
pipe from condenser to evaporator,- sprayed air through
orface tube- bought new one
evaporator- brake cleaner and sprayed air through
dryer/accumulator- bought new one
pipe from dryer to compressor-brake cleaner, sprayed air through
Clutch Cycling Switch-bought new one
New retro fittings

I appreciate any and all help, thank you for your time…
Shawn

Dougflas on Mon July 19, 2010 5:45 AM

Since you don't know the history of the AC system why it failed originally, if it were me I'd change the condenser with a parallel flow type.

Cussboy on Mon July 19, 2010 6:09 AM

Quote
Originally posted by: areonic1
BUT, if I spray the water hose on the condenser itself, the entire AC system changes how it acts, blows cold air, pressures drop, and it seems to run normal until the water runs off.

Sounds to me like your #1 issue is that the condenser is not cooling the refrigerant (not "freon") good enough, if cooling the condenser artifiically (like with spraying water on it) restores decent operation. Be patient, see what the experts say.

Some with conversions have had to change out condensers, some vehicles convert better than others.

areonic1 on Mon July 19, 2010 6:15 AM

Ya know, some might be bothered they have to swap a condesner, if that is the fact....Im actually excited. I'd rather pay $120 on a part that I know is the problem, then a bunch of 30, 40, 60 that add up and never get me anywhere.

Chick on Mon July 19, 2010 7:59 AM

1993 explorers used the FX15 compressor know for "Black Death" so if the first compressor failure wasn't fixed properly all subsequent replacements are doomed.. Replacement compressors, of course, are the FS10 which you have now.. But usually a black death scenario requires a firewall forward replacement of parts, since it's nearly impossible to properly flush them. Go to the tips forum and read about black death and what is needed to fix it properly.. Your condenser is most likely garbage now.. Don't even try to save it..

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Chick
Email: Chick

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Freedoms just another word for nothing left to lose

iceman2555 on Mon July 19, 2010 4:56 PM

Total agreement with chick...however, keep in mind the evaporator is a major reservoir for contaminated lubricants. It needs to be cleaned...completely or replaced.
Flushing with brake clean is....how does one say this diplomatically.......ahhh...like pissing on a forest fire....it simply does not work to clean a system properly. The reason, the PRV released was because the discharge pressures were exceeding the system specifications. The condenser is toast...gone...kaput....history.....can be cleaned...but most shops and very few individuals have the correct equipment or chemicals to accomplish this task. In your case....replace the darn thing. Ford utilized a 6mm pic for this vehicle, if my memory works correctly, this condenser should be sufficient for 134a (it was an OE first design). However, given the choice.....obtain a Parallel Flow Hi Efficiency unit and use it instead. Works better.
Insure that the fan clutch is operational...over three years or 50k miles...trash it...get a new one...while there...order a new fan blade also...you will need it. The old ones get cracks in the webbing...and may shatter at any time. Can you spell...NEW RADIATOR!!! Do not take a chance.
Recharge the system....retest and post results....but should be good to go.


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The strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government.
Thomas Jefferson

areonic1 on Mon July 19, 2010 9:30 PM

Alright, quick update, Im at a stop point.....I started to swap my condesner today, while I was letting my radiator drain, I started to remove the rest of the components, when I went to remove the orface tube out of the evaporator, it wasnt there. After further looking around, I believe it has been sucked into the evaporator a couple inches down. Because I took one of those little needle poking tools, put it down there and could feel it catching on something.

Now, my question isnt if its possible to remove or take it out, but what would cause that issue?
Also, I did learn a lil but more info today about the AC system, the Evaporator was changed in 1999, least it had a Ford used Parts sticker on it with a date.

Anyway, kinda stuck until I figure something out on this

Chick on Mon July 19, 2010 9:39 PM

How deep in is it, can you use a long dry wall screw to get it?? Also, if it's not past the "dimples" in the line, thats where it belongs.. In that case needle nose plyers will/should do it.. But it's not that uncommon for an O tube to be blown into the evaporator.. Seen a lot of them..

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Chick
Email: Chick

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Freedoms just another word for nothing left to lose

iceman2555 on Mon July 19, 2010 9:59 PM

First and foremost, the system MUST be fully charged to properly evaluate the system for a solution to the problem. Failing to have the system totally charged will simply result in wasted 'guesstamations' to a possible solution.
The issue with the fan clutch does raise some serious concerns. The fact that the pressures tend to drop drastically when water is applied to the condenser tends to indicate a heat transfer problem...more than likely the fan clutch. Go back to the post....3 years or 50k miles. The clutch may be moving air....but is it sufficient for proper cooling.
The statement concerning the cycling condition when driving can be related to a serious undercharge of the system and the resultant lower suction/evaporator pressures. This vehicle does not have a HPCO switch, it uses a PRV (Pressure Relief Valve) when discharge pressures exceed a certain pressure range.
Removing the orifice tube should not be a difficult problem....a long dry wall screw works wonders at times. When replacing the orifice tube, insure that it is seated properly. The excessive pressures of your system could contribute to the movement of the OT.
Simply 'spraying' air thru a component is not a valid test for proper flow. A muffler will flow a tremendous amount of air...and still be contaminated. Same with a condenser or evaporator. The fact that air moves thru the component simply means that air will flow thru the component. These components react entirely different when subjected to the pressure/operations of the system when fully charged.
Insure that your new condenser is correct for your application. Make sure it is not constructed of brass/copper....should be aluminum.
From the post, it seems your system is working....however....there are several items that need to be fine tuned to maximize performance and cooling.

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The strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government.
Thomas Jefferson

areonic1 on Mon July 19, 2010 10:47 PM

Well, here we go again......

For the clutch fan, like I said, I compared it with another car same as mine, and it seemed fine. Using the method alldata.com says to use to test the clutch. (after the car warms up, turn it off and spin it, if it spins freely with no effort, then its bad) It required me to push it with a little effort.

With the orface tube stuck in the evaporator and using a screw to get it out....I actually was dumb enough to try it, and put a slit in the side of the evap tube, so gotta get a new one of those.

So my new question is....Since after buying a compressor, dryer, orface tube, ac clutch cycle switch, condesner and now tomorrow an evaporator....that would pretty much be replacing the entire system and when I get it all together, vacuumed out, refilled, it should work, correct?

Chick on Mon July 19, 2010 11:30 PM

You put a split in the side of the evaporator?? Seems if it wasn't for bad luck you'd have none at all.. Oh well, yes, changing the entire system it should work..Provided the fan clutch is working properly and the hoses are good.. Proper amount of Pag 46 oil, and the correct amount of refrigerant..

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Chick
Email: Chick

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Freedoms just another word for nothing left to lose

areonic1 on Tue July 20, 2010 12:39 AM

I know its a dumb question, but id like to try and make sure before I put it all together in the morning and break something else. Whats the best method to insure all the lines are good? I know theres the big one that goes from the dryer to manifold, from manifold to condenser and it has the coke can looking thing on it. The other line is just from the condenser to the evaporator. Also, The synthetic freon, do i still add oil to that? Only reason I ask is on the back it says it replaces lost lubercant.

HECAT on Tue July 20, 2010 7:24 AM

Quote
Originally posted by: areonic1
I know its a dumb question, but id like to try and make sure before I put it all together in the morning and break something else. Whats the best method to insure all the lines are good? I know theres the big one that goes from the dryer to manifold, from manifold to condenser and it has the coke can looking thing on it. The other line is just from the condenser to the evaporator. Also, The synthetic freon, do i still add oil to that? Only reason I ask is on the back it says it replaces lost lubercant.

I would replace the hoses, definitely the one with the muffler. Put the fresh oil in the system before you seal it up, and charge with pure 134a only.

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FLUSHING TECHNICAL PAPER vs2.pdf 

Chick on Tue July 20, 2010 7:57 AM

I agree, replace the hoses, especially the one with the muffler..Use the proper amount of PAG 46 oil and R134a refrigerant, stay away from anything that isn't pure R134a..

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Chick
Email: Chick

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Freedoms just another word for nothing left to lose

areonic1 on Wed July 21, 2010 8:36 PM

Well, another day of dissapointment. The whole AC system has been replaced and nothing has changed. Compressor, condenser, evaporator, dryer, orface tube, clutch cycling switch. Took it to a shop, they let me use theyre pump, vacuumed it till 30psi, added not even a full 2 cans and it already hit 55psi on low side. High side started climbing to around 400psi. My cars suppose to take like 32oz of freon, we put 1 and a hlaf cans in, 12 oz cans, and it had already hit 55psi.

Its really dissapointing to see 1200bux do nothing.

Ac clutch stays on in nuetral, yet when you put a load on it, the pressure on the low side drops low, and cuts the compressor off.

bigkev on Thu July 22, 2010 4:15 AM

when you vac'd it down did you wait and see if it held a vacuum? Start it up and get your pressures, lets say 55 on low 350 on high or whatever, Now turn of the vehicle and lets see how long it takes for the pressures to equalize. Time it and report back.

bigkev on Thu July 22, 2010 4:17 AM

Also, when you check the pressures the next day are they the same? Was the orifice tube you took out past the dimple? What did it look like (the old otube)?

mk378 on Thu July 22, 2010 8:27 AM

Runaway high pressure here (new condenser, proper charge of refrigerant and oil, no air in system) means the condenser is not being cooled adequately. It's a worn out fan clutch like Chick and Iceman suggested. There's no certain test for them, just replace it with an OEM or name-brand "heavy duty" unit.

Edited: Thu July 22, 2010 at 8:31 AM by mk378

bohica2xo on Thu July 22, 2010 11:59 AM

Actually 378, there is a way to test a fan clutch:

Testing fan clutches

However, in the case of a 1993 explorer I use the rebound test:

1) Remove clutch & fan assembly from vehicle.

2) Carefully remove plastic fan from clutch.

3) Inspect plastic fan for cracks. The explorer is known for plastic fan failures.

4) Toss fan clutch into trash can from at least four feet away.
If it bounces back out, grabs fan as it goes by & re-installs itself it was a good part.

B.

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"Among the many misdeeds of the British rule in India, history will look upon the act of depriving a whole nation of arms, as the blackest."
~ Mahatma Gandhi, Gandhi, An Autobiography, M. K. Gandhi, page 446.

bigkev on Thu July 22, 2010 1:29 PM

i got a stupid question. You didnt take the fan shroud off the vehicle did you?

bohica2xo on Thu July 22, 2010 1:39 PM

Not a stupid question at all Kev, and actually a very good point.

B.

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"Among the many misdeeds of the British rule in India, history will look upon the act of depriving a whole nation of arms, as the blackest."
~ Mahatma Gandhi, Gandhi, An Autobiography, M. K. Gandhi, page 446.