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Noisy Bearing, what to do?

Homercidal on Mon August 27, 2007 1:41 PM User is offline

Year: 1999
Make: Jeep
Model: Cherokee
Engine Size: 4.0L
Refrigerant Type: R134

It seems my clutch bearing has started making a little noise recently. I removed the belt and checked all pulleys on that side of the Jeep and the AC pulley makes a little bit of dry rubbing noise when spinning by hand. It does spin freely.

The AC seems to be working fine. There is a low chirping/rubbing noise while the AC clutch is NOT engaged, and it seems to disappear when it engages.

What would be the best course of action? I have looked around all over this area, and parts are hard to find, and there doesn't seem to be any option of repacking/replacing the bearing (??). I'd really rather do that if it can be done.

The compressor is a Sanden 709T, model U4722. I have not gotten any pressure or voltage readings. Could I replace the whole compressor in my garage, or will I need to have this done for me? (I'm not inexperienced with most automotive repairs) What about special tools?

Chick on Mon August 27, 2007 4:23 PM User is offlineView users profile

It depends on exactly what noise you're hearing. It could be the clutch gap to tight?? Unusual for a shimmed compressor, but if it rubs when you spin the pully, I'd check it.. Otherwise you have to change the clutch assembly, or the bearing, or a used pully with bearing..Any option will work..You can e-mail the guys at ackits.com and get a price on the new clutch assembly, or the bearing.. Remove the nut on the front hub and the outer plate slides off, and a snap ring holds the pully on. Once you remove that you'll see the "peans" holding the bearinmg in..You can try repacking the bearing also..Works a lot of the time...But if the bearings are worn to much, it will begin to sling the greese out and onto the pully surface causing the clutch to fail..
Check the clutch gap though. Should be able to slide a business card between the hub and pully
snuggly". Gap around.02 Hope this helps..



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Chick
Email: Chick

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Freedoms just another word for nothing left to lose

Homercidal on Tue August 28, 2007 8:39 AM User is offline

Ok, the bearing is supposedly not replaceable (we'll see). But for the prices I've seen for both clutch and compressor, would it be better to just replace the whole compressor? Could I do this myself?

I'll check the gap in the meantime and see how it looks. I've got feeler gauges, so I can see exactly where it's at.

NickD on Tue August 28, 2007 9:03 AM User is offline

If you remove the pulley, you can carefully pry out the outer bearing seal from the outside, not on the inner race, and peek inside to see if you have any grease left. If you see dried up grease coating the balls, and not very much of it, get a can of Gunk choke and carb cleaner, use the entire can if you have to and blow the inside out followed with an air hose. Can only see the outer balls and races, these are a double roll bearing, but if the balls and races look clean with no pits, pack it with a high quality disc brake grease, put on the seal, and you are good to go again.

This is assuming your AC system is still in good shape and it's only the bearing that is the problem, but is wiser to buy the entire compressor than just the clutch assembly, kind of like paying 370 bucks just for the engine on a lawn mower you only paid 200 bucks for. Wonder how many of those they sell?

mk378 on Tue August 28, 2007 10:59 AM User is offline

First pull the clutch plate off and spin again to confirm it's really the bearing and not just clutch drag. Dragging clutch could be adjusted or just live with the noise, it's not doing any damage.

My experience has been that when a "sealed" bearing starts to make noise, it's too late to repack it. Sometimes you can find the bearing sold separately instead of having to buy the whole clutch set or a new compressor.

NickD on Wed August 29, 2007 6:57 AM User is offline

Really don't know until you look, when they first start making noise with that hard coating of grease all over, checked bearings for TIR, side deflection, races and balls for pits, what they really needed was a good cleaning. On the other hand, had bearings that sounded perfectly fine and in just a few minutes would seize up.

Something to ponder when driving down a deserted road out of cell phone reach during a snow storm with a single belt drive system. If that pulley bearing or any other in the belt drive train decides to seize, you are screwed blue. It's better to check all the bearings or to have them checked before that noise starts, and again, you don't know until you look.

My questions is, since these bearings are so volunable, can go at anytime, why to they make them so difficult to change? And why are they putting all of your eggs in one basket?

Homercidal on Mon December 10, 2007 1:53 PM User is offline

Unfortunately, I did not realize how easy it was to change the bearing until it was too late. I picked up a used condensor at a Pick-N-Pull salvage yard aroudn Thanksgiving, and, because the compressor was not making any MORE noise, I kept putting off the repair. Anyway, the day that I took that used compressor apart is the day that I started smelling my belt burning.

Yep, the old bearing had bit the dust. At that time I figured I could use the salvage bearing, as it spun well with no noise. I did the swap (with what is hoped is a brand new repalacement bearing on order) and got my Jeep back on the road.

But, now the clutch does not engage!!

It seemed to be working very well right up to the end. Any ideas? I will mention that the old bearing was COMPELTELY torn apart. The front of the coil looked like it was burnt, but I have no way of knowing what it is supposed to look like to compare.

If I had known that it would only take about an hour of easy labor (with a puller) to fix this, I would not have waited so long! Too bad the junk yard pulley does not fit the compressor. The bearing was the same though.

Homercidal on Mon December 10, 2007 1:54 PM User is offline

Oops, I meant I picked up a used COMPRESSOR at a U-Wrench-It place!

Homercidal on Mon December 10, 2007 1:59 PM User is offline

Also, I agree that it sucks that you cannot buy a replacement bearing very easily. It is an odd size (35x55x20mm) and I think I did locate one. The part number was suggested by someone my purchasing person talked to, and I got the same number form a different source myself. I'm still waiting for it to arrive to see if it will actually work, but I expect it to.

Parts stores could make this available as it is a very easy swap if you have a couple of hand tools and a press.

I ground the dimples with a pencil grinder (a dremel would probably work, or may not even be necessary) and pressed the old bearing out. A quick clean up of the edge to make sure there are no burrs and slide it in. I used a bit of loctite instead of more dimples (Some stuff I got at work for slip surfaces. You can heat it up to remove if necessary).

So I'm happy the Jeep i son the road, but curious how to check the clutch now?

Chick on Mon December 10, 2007 2:58 PM User is offlineView users profile

Check the coil for three to four ohms, if the bearing came apart as you stated, the coil is most likely toast. Hopefully you have the good coil left?? would have been easier to change it when you did the bearing/pully. Here's a pick on how to check the ohms


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Chick
Email: Chick

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Freedoms just another word for nothing left to lose

Chick on Mon December 10, 2007 3:58 PM User is offlineView users profile

BTW, you can get just about "any pulley bearing" right here from the guys at Ackits.com..Should you ever need to reffer someone for the bearing....

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Chick
Email: Chick

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Freedoms just another word for nothing left to lose

ice-n-tropics on Mon December 10, 2007 5:57 PM User is offline

Homer,
AMA can get a complete replacement clutch Sanden #6581-6010 or a drop in replacement compressor Sanden #4691 (aftermarket), if you have future needs.
Cordially,
Old IV guy (leaving for balmy Chicago)

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Isentropic Efficiency=Ratio of Theoretical Compression Energy/Actual Energy.
AMAZON.com: How To Air Condition Your Hot Rod

TRB on Mon December 10, 2007 9:57 PM User is offlineView users profile

Quote
Originally posted by: ice-n-tropics
Homer,

AMA can get a complete replacement clutch Sanden #6581-6010 or a drop in replacement compressor Sanden #4691 (aftermarket), if you have future needs.

Cordially,

Old IV guy (leaving for balmy Chicago)

Which I would suggest the Sanden compressor. Clutch assembly many times costs almost as much as a new unit.



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Contact: ACKits.com

Homercidal on Tue December 11, 2007 7:20 AM User is offline

Thanks for the info. I'll test the coil, but as you say, I figure it's most likely toasted.

As far as the bearing goes, I believe I contacted ackits.com about a bearing a while back, and the only thing they had was the replacement compressor.

Right now I'd be more interested in just replacing the coil. My reasoning is that my air has always worked very well, and a coil would be very simple to replace, compared to a whole new compressor. Please correct me if I'm wrong. I think replacing the compressor would take some technical skills and tools that I do not have. At any rate, it is winter here now, so I have a couple of months to decide before I really need air conditioning! (Although it might be nice to play some more in my new garage, but not until I get the electrical installed).

The salvage yard pulley was not from the same model, and is too small to slide over the coil.

Chick on Tue December 11, 2007 7:32 AM User is offlineView users profile

After you test the coil (and find it's shot) I would start looking for a coil. It's good to have AC in the winter, as it works with defrost. Keeps your windows clear... Maybe you can find a "core" in the boneyard, and buy just the used coil..You never know,...

Also check out this link and see if your comnpressor is listed. If it is, it gives the part numbers for bearings, coils etc that Ackits.com can order for you. Helps when you have the part number, sorry I didn't mention that..

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Chick
Email: Chick

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Freedoms just another word for nothing left to lose

Homercidal on Tue December 11, 2007 8:58 AM User is offline

Well, it does give a bearing number, but there is no listing for coils.

I did not see any Jeeps at the U-Wrench-It place that were close to my year. I'll have to remember to check all of the Chrylser vehicles for a compatible compressor the next time I am looking for parts.

Homercidal on Tue December 11, 2007 9:05 AM User is offline

Hmmm.... Just had a thought...

What if I installed the salvage yard coil onto the compressor, and then used the pulley from that as well. They would fit together, if the coil will mount on that compressor. I'd have to use the clutch plate from the original compressor, as the original compressor has a splined shaft, and the salvage yard compressor has a keyed shaft. As far as I know, the pulley diameter is the same on both, so the belt size would be the same. Might have to double check the shim to get a proper gap. But, if the coil will mount, I might be able to get my air back without spending any more money! (Not that I dont' have it, but it burns me to have to buy an overpriced clutch/pulley or compressor when all I really needed was a little bearing).

NickD on Wed December 12, 2007 9:08 AM User is offline

Worse case I saw with a little bearing was one seized in a twin aircraft alternator, gear driven, broke the gear and the crankcase, cost the guy $60K for repairs, they can be expensive. I use to buy and specify bearing from the major US manufacturers, quite a bit different than the electronic component industry, didn't make any difference if I purchased one or a million, the price was the same, God I miss America. They were all after my business, any bearing I needed for personal use, got it, was restoring a Model A and got every bearing for free, even those large roller bearings for the rear axle, thought that was a special Ford only part. Bearing came in different grades, ABEC 1 through 9, the 9's were the most expensive with the tightest tolerances used in delicate instrument controls, was working in industrial machinery back then, got sales pitches on popping off the seals and looking at the insides.

One thing very typical back then was using a precision bearing cage, hardened steel welded together, and the bearings were packed full of grease. Some idiot today decided to make the cage out of plastic that melts if the bearings get to hot, what a positively stupid idea, but this is the kind of crap we have to put up today. Lack of lubrication, they don't add very much grease to new bearing, just had a new one apart last week, where in the F is the grease? Just a very thin coating on the balls, grease dries, causes friction, plastic melts, all the balls gang up and wedge on one side, and the bearing locks tighter than a drum.

Bearings were also rated on load factors, maximum load would only give 1,000 hours of life, but this life time would increase exponentially as the load proportionally decreased, want over 100,000 hours of life? Simple, use a larger bearing, not much thought had to be given, all the charts and life factors were there in black and white, what a great country this was. Maybe that is why we won WW II.

Bearings can be tested by firmly mounting the inner race using a precision dial gauge checking for both side play and radial runout. Bearings are sold strictly by size, ID of the inner race, OD of the outer race, and the width of the bearing, number of ball bearing rolls, most are single such as in tensioner pulleys and alternators, compressor bearings are typically dual roll, actually two single ball bearings in one outer race, and by the type of shielding, no shields, single shields, or sealed bearings with seal on each side. Compressor pulley bearing is a double roll double sealed bearing. We use to have a Berry Bearing store in town, exclusively sold nothing but bearings, but that was a zillion years ago, guess the demand for bearings wasn't just there. And why not, the compressor bearing in my 65 Buick, very easy to change lasted over 280K miles. I wouldn't mind spending ten minutes in a dark alley with the guy that decided to peen in ball bearings, he may pound the crap out of me, but not before I got a couple of punches in, and that will feel real good for the misery is he has caused to me. Absolutely miserable job to replace the bearing on my 92 DeVille and it was squeaking with only 85K on the clock.

But if Tim can supply you with a bearing, why not? Would save hours of searching.

Parts cost? What can I say, going through my file cabinet and found the receipt and manual for a clothes dryer I purchased from sears back in 1965 and had all the parts listed with a price list. Paid 225 for the dryer, the total parts cost came to around 160 bucks, could have saved 65 bucks if I just purchased the parts and put it together myself. That is ancient history, today just the drive motor and heating element costs more than the price of a new dryer. Back then could just put an old appliance on the street and the city would pick it up, but didn't have to, you could fix it for a couple of bucks. Today you have to pay a small fortune to get rid of that stuff and all you hear about is recycling.

Said it before and will say it again, the world is going to hell, back then was a buck for a complete rebuilt kit for a fuel pump, two bucks if you had the dual diaphragm, all screws and in a couple of minutes would have a brand new pump. Today, 400 bucks for a tiny toss away pump, and a positively miserable job to change, and they call this progress?

Homercidal on Mon June 09, 2008 11:11 AM User is offline

Well, my repair did work. A few days after thinking the clutch was not engaging, I did see that it started working. Must not have been the right temps that day or something. But, a few days ago, my air stopped working. I dumped a can of refrigerant in and it started working again! Thanks to you guys, I was able to fix my own air, for a fraction of the cost of a new compressor.

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