Automotive Air Conditioning Information Forum (Archives)

billy goat on Fri July 09, 2004 12:24 PM

Has any one used R12a ? and if so what were the results

Chick on Fri July 09, 2004 12:30 PM

Stick with R12 or R134a which can be serived world wide..Why fool with something you may not be able to have repaired on the road...?? Or lose your warranty on parts if anything other than R12 or R134a is used.. Just my opinion though..Hope this helps..

-------------------------
Chick
Email: Chick

---------------------------------------------

Freedoms just another word for nothing left to lose

billy goat on Fri July 09, 2004 7:17 PM

yes but I can buy cans of R12A for 5 dollars a can from tennessee

Karl Hofmann on Fri July 09, 2004 7:32 PM

There is no such stuff as R12a, what I suspect that you are referring to is Duracool 12a The R would suggest that it is an accepted refrigerant, which this stuff isn't. If your overriding factor is cheap, then ,well , it's a free world, but if you are wise then listen to Chick.

The things they say about Duracool

-------------------------
Never knock on deaths door... Ring the doorbell and run away, death really hates that!

TXAB on Sat July 10, 2004 2:06 PM

Tim has some data on accepted replacements and their performance. You might want to take a look.

Test results

-------------------------
"Don't get stuck on stupid!"
---- Lt. Gen. Russel Honore

billy goat on Sat July 10, 2004 6:12 PM

I suggest every one read what charles fox says ,I did
and after evacuating my system, installing used comp $75.
rerplaced the orfice tube, under the washer box,added only 2 cans@6oz'
per can @ $5.00 /can of HC12A...I was amazed at the lower operating pressures and the really
mucho colder air,I haven't measured temp, but coming home with outside air of 90 and inside themostat set at 73 deg. I had to crank it up a little ,to cold! it's colder than it has
been since I owned the car ,6 years;;total cost was $85. plus labor
of $50 dollars plus I tipped my guy another $50 because I was so happy .

Thank you again Charles

I found him on that duracold link
on the 88 buick page I think

billy goat on Sat July 10, 2004 6:14 PM

make that duracool

TRB on Sat July 10, 2004 6:15 PM

Listen to Charles Fox if you want to break the law! It is illegal to go from R12 to an HC refrigerant!

-------------------------

When considering your next auto A/C purchase, please consider the site that supports you: ACkits.com
Contact: ACKits.com

TXAB on Sat July 10, 2004 6:59 PM

Tim, Chick and Karl,

That was a good debate you were involved in on the other website. You definitely had factual and legal information on your side.

I especially liked where the HC guy claimed German cars were streaming off the line with HC's installed, but couldn't or wouldn't ever name any actual makes or models. Of course Karl was able to stuff that claim where the sun don't shine. Really loved it when he switched to saying it was refrigerators or such he was really talking about.

I know this arguement will never be settled, too many conspiracy theorists out there. It's always interesting to see what some of the claims HC proponents make.

Like one of you said, you can put whatever you want in your system, but is it legal and is it universally serviceable.

-------------------------
"Don't get stuck on stupid!"
---- Lt. Gen. Russel Honore

Edited: Sat July 10, 2004 at 10:30 PM by TXAB

MrBillPro on Sat July 10, 2004 7:12 PM

Quote
Originally posted by: billy goat
I suggest every one read what charles fox says ,I did

and after evacuating my system, installing used comp $75.

rerplaced the orfice tube, under the washer box,added only 2 cans@6oz'

per can @ $5.00 /can of HC12A...I was amazed at the lower operating pressures and the really

mucho colder air,I haven't measured temp, but coming home with outside air of 90 and inside themostat set at 73 deg. I had to crank it up a little ,to cold! it's colder than it has

been since I owned the car ,6 years;;total cost was $85. plus labor

of $50 dollars plus I tipped my guy another $50 because I was so happy .



Thank you again Charles



I found him on that duracold link

on the 88 buick page I think



Your truly Blessed! and maybe one of a kind, I have had no expirence with this freon. How long has your vehicle been running the Duracool or Duracold? I hope you can come back in 6 months and tell us your still freezing I have a 86 Monte Carlo SS that still uses
R-12 but i will wait for your report in 6 months before i make up my mind.

-------------------------
Don't take life seriously... Its not permanent.

Karl Hofmann on Sun July 11, 2004 5:16 AM

HA HA!

That didn't look much like an advert from a HC peddler did it?

The US must be a pretty yucky place because of all those exploding hearts that R134a causes. Ive just taken the dog out in the car and she's as stiff as a board.....Doh! Its just so easy to mistake my BMW for my Bosch Fridge/ Freezer

-------------------------
Never knock on deaths door... Ring the doorbell and run away, death really hates that!

TXAB on Sun July 11, 2004 3:56 PM

Quote
Originally posted by: Karl Hofmann
HA HA!
That didn't look much like an advert from a HC peddler did it?
The US must be a pretty yucky place because of all those exploding hearts that R134a causes. Ive just taken the dog out in the car and she's as stiff as a board..... Doh! Its just so easy to mistake my BMW for my Bosch Fridge/ Freezer



ROFLMAO

-------------------------
"Don't get stuck on stupid!"
---- Lt. Gen. Russel Honore

TRB on Sun July 11, 2004 4:22 PM

Quote
Originally posted by: Karl Hofmann
HA HA!
Its just so easy to mistake my BMW for my Bosch Fridge/ Freezer

Remember what nailhead said, every BMW leaving the line these days is filled with an HC.



-------------------------
When considering your next auto A/C purchase, please consider the site that supports you: ACkits.com
Contact: ACKits.com

Anonymous on Mon July 12, 2004 3:39 PM

But it is true - every BMW rolling off the line is filled with HC - otherwise the engine wouldn't run! Just no HCs inside the A/C system.

The MVAC HC yahoos wouldn't know a fact if it bit them, nor are they interested in one if it doesn't conform to their idea of reality. Lies and half truths are the staple of con men, and what the Duracool people do makes con men look like fine upstanding citizens. I have personally confronted them in public in front of governmental officials with facts, and they keep spewing the lies out with no sign of correcting their misinformation. At least the government paid attention, and realized the lies when they were pointed out. Even Greenpeace has no love for HCs in auto A/C - that should tell you something since they pushed very hard for HCs in other applications like refrigerators.

The HCs are every bit the cardiac sensitizers the HFCs and CFCs are, and can cause "death without warning" as well. The cardiac hazard of HCs are ignored because by the time your heart has problems, you have likely blown yourself to the moon. Another fact the HC guys have ignored.

Anonymous on Mon July 12, 2004 4:32 PM

According to the figures R134a has a lower ignition point than the HC.

FrankD. on Tue July 13, 2004 1:36 AM

You need to talk to Hank Hill he sells Propane and Propane accessories. LOL

-------------------------
FrankD.

Karl Hofmann on Tue July 13, 2004 2:07 AM

Quote
Originally posted by: Anonymous
According to the figures R134a has a lower ignition point than the HC.

Is that the autoignition point, which in the real world is not the same as ignition in the presence of a spark or other ignition source. Many folk look at a table of numbers without really understanding what thes numbers mean, and so automatically assume that higher is better and lower is not so good.

Most folk would regard petrol (Gassoline) to be more easilly ignited than diesel yet the autoignition temperature if diesel is 210C compaired to petrols 246C

A simple test might be, open a bottle of R134a over a lit brazing torch, then do the same with a HC refrigerant and see which one leaves you with your eyebrows on. (Disclaimer, dont try to sue anyone for you being daft enough to try this test)

-------------------------
Never knock on deaths door... Ring the doorbell and run away, death really hates that!

Edited: Tue July 13, 2004 at 2:15 AM by Karl Hofmann

NickD on Tue July 13, 2004 8:10 AM

No matter how you slice it, HC's are a blend of gases of precise ratios that determine system pressures. MVAC systems all leak to some extent, the lighter of the two gases will leak out first, then bang, there goes your system, like walking on a tightrope.

Yet another factor never considered nor mentioned is that the gases will settle in the system with the heavier of the two gases at the bottom resulting in high impact pressures when the system first starts up. Tantamount to wacking the entire system with a sledge hammer tearing the system apart each time it cycles resulting in excessive drive train wear.

I am amazed that the kid engineers that vastly overlook start up surge currents when designing an electronic system is this is well more widespread than you think. When does an electronic appliance blow? When you first turn it on. All factors have to be considered when designing a system and HC's do not lend themselves in their present non-homogenous state.

When posting, either put it in the form of a question or know your facts first before making a statement. Otherwise, you are just passing along marketing trash.

Anonymous on Tue July 13, 2004 3:49 PM

Quote
Originally posted by: Anonymous
According to the figures R134a has a lower ignition point than the HC.

More examples of the mis-information spread by the HC yahoos. The autoignition temperature of hydrocarbons is lower (less safe) than HFC-134a. The BS test used by Duracool to say the autoignition temperature is higher than R-134a is not a true autoignition temperature measurement - they passed gas over a red hot surface at a concentration above the upper flammability limit and - 'surprise' - it didn't burn. The test is complete BS as far as determining safety. They should mix air and HC12a together at 6 percent refrigerant and repeat the test - but make sure nothing valuable is nearby! Thankfully, others have measured the actual flammability properties of propane and butane and the data is readily available.

Here are a couple of links to the correct information on flammability of hydrocarbons and R-134a. The autoignition temperature of R-134a is between 700 and 750 degrees C as measured by UL, and they give it a 'practically nonflammable' rating, the same rating as R-22 has. R-12 got a 'nonflammable' rating because it has an autoignition temperature above 750 degrees C. Hydrocarbons get a 'flammable' rating.

BTW, which do you think would make a better engine fuel - HC12a or HFC-134a? I think you would get very frustrated trying to start an engine with pure R-134a in the fuel tank!

http://www.propanecarbs.com/propane.html

http://www.fluorocarbons.org/frame.htm?chfamilies/HFCs/environ/warning/safety.htm

Hotunderthecollar on Thu July 15, 2004 4:54 PM

Quote
No matter how you slice it, HC's are a blend of gases of precise ratios that determine system pressures. MVAC systems all leak to some extent, the lighter of the two gases will leak out first, then bang, there goes your system, like walking on a tightrope

I'll give you that, whether it is likely or not, but a complete recharge of hc will cost I think it is worth a try.
If it doesn't work, or gasses separate, you can evac and recharge with more hc, or switch to r12.
There will be a little more work switching, but we are not afraid of a little extra work to save some $$, are we?
We wouldn't be reading message boards like this if we were.

-------------------------
You know what they say about opinions: Everybody has one, and most of them stink. "It's going to be smooth sailing from now, Lil" buddy". That's what The Skipper said to Gilligan right before the hut started to collapse.

Karl Hofmann on Thu July 15, 2004 6:36 PM

As has been said before, if cheap is your only consideration, then it is a free world.

I am a little confused as to why in a country where people sue people for fun and profit why leave yourself wide open to such risks. How do your insurance companies view this? Here our insurance would be null and void.

-------------------------
Never knock on deaths door... Ring the doorbell and run away, death really hates that!

EagleMark on Mon September 05, 2011 8:55 AM

any updated information on how this hc 12a works in a r12 system?

-------------------------
1994 Buick Raodmaster Estate Wagon White Woodgrain. My four door Corvette Wagon! 1990 Chevy Suburban Silverado 5.7L 2wd and stuff! R12 Still Works!

Addicted and Obsessed with Fuel Injecting Anything!
[URL="http://http://www.eagle-mark.com/Forums/"]Shared BIN files, Definitians and Wiring diagrams![/URL]

TRB on Mon September 05, 2011 6:08 PM

Quote
Originally posted by: EagleMark
any updated information on how this hc 12a works in a r12 system?

No it still blows up as before.





-------------------------
When considering your next auto A/C purchase, please consider the site that supports you: ACkits.com
Contact: ACKits.com