Automotive Air Conditioning Information Forum (Archives)

Provided by www.ACkits.com

We've updated our forums!
Click here to visit the new forum

Archive Home

Search Auto AC Forum Archives

Is Flush necessary?? locked comp looks clean

nighthawk4603 on Sat January 29, 2011 11:54 PM User is offline

Year: 1994
Make: Honda
Model: Accord LX
Engine Size: 2.2
Refrigerant Type: R134
Country of Origin: United States

The 94 accord has a locked up Nippondenso 10PA17C compressor. Estimates for repair $800 - 1200.00. I have a little A/C experience,but not much. I was advised that the reason the estimated were so high was due to the fact that there would be metal chards in the system.

It looks as clean as a whistle inside I don't see metal. What is there to flush. Is this a sign that I could just replace the compressor and receiver drier and be back in business? What are the odds? The honda shop said they may or may not have to flush so I guess it is possible to replace a compressor with out doing so. If everything is clean would the expansion valve have to be replaced?

I turned the compressor upside down and no oil came out of the compressor? Is this common? All the literature talks about measuring the oil in the old compressor to determine what to put in the new unit?? The honda shop manual says if there is no oil in the old unit then Drain no more than 1 2/3 ounce from the new. This assumes that the new unit has 5.3 oz I guess new compressors come with oil?

NickD on Sun January 30, 2011 4:55 AM User is offline

Sounds like your old compressor locked up due to lack of oil, and whats left of your old oil is already 17 years old. So do you want to risk seizing a new compressor plus performance by not knowing the condition of your old oil and how much is left in the system? Then what happened to the original oil, is possible to leak out just oil without leaking out refrigerant. In these cases, the safety circuits think everything is okay and do not shut down the compressor. Main culprit for collecting debris is the condenser.

I would definitely not only flush, but also replace all the O-ring fittings, or otherwise you will be laying out another 800 bucks. Only way to know for sure the correct amount of oil is added, is to flush out the system first.

bohica2xo on Sun January 30, 2011 9:32 PM User is offline

New condensor, compressor, TXV, dryer. Flush the hoses & evaporator. About 550 bucks in parts. For another 50 you can just replace the evaporator too.

B.

-------------------------
"Among the many misdeeds of the British rule in India, history will look upon the act of depriving a whole nation of arms, as the blackest."
~ Mahatma Gandhi, Gandhi, An Autobiography, M. K. Gandhi, page 446.

NickD on Mon January 31, 2011 5:10 AM User is offline

Good point on replacing the condenser, Brad, a 1994 with a difficult to clean parallel flow.

HECAT on Mon January 31, 2011 12:04 PM User is offline

To investigate the severity of the failure, I would back blow the condenser into a clean towel; this is where the metal particulates will be. The proper amount of clean oil is imperative for a successful repair; guessing and assuming increases the risk of repeat failure.

-------------------------



HECAT: www.hecatinc.com You support the Forum when you consider www.ackits.com for your a/c parts.

FLUSHING TECHNICAL PAPER vs2.pdf 

nighthawk4603 on Mon January 31, 2011 10:44 PM User is offline

Thanks for the input.

The system didn't leak so some how oil wasn't being circulated through the compressor ? why ? So the assumption all the oil is in the condenser along what whatever debris is there. Does the filter dryer not catch the debris? Is it possible that the filter dryer was partially clogged and preventing the oil from circulating throughout the system. In a normal functioning system does the oil circulate along with the refrigerant?

Sorry for all the questions I am just trying to understand.

nighthawk4603 on Mon January 31, 2011 11:12 PM User is offline


"back blow the condenser into a clean towel" this is with a flush product not air NOT Air correct? I can get flush in a can at Napa but like the idea of a new condensor as well. I once changed an automatic transmission and used a can of flush to clean the cooler and transmission lines before replacing the transmission. I assume this is a similair process.

bohica2xo
You suggest relacing everything. Is the TXV the expansion valve? While your in there why not I guess. Generally is the evaporator cleanable unlike the condensor? One would think the metal shavings wouldn' be in it but maybe it is best to remove stale oil. Is it best to remove the evaporator to flush it?

Again. forgive me for my ignorant questions and thank you fin advance for your answers . Bottom line I want the system to work and if the best way for a novice to make that happem is putting in new part then I can live with that.Text

HECAT on Tue February 01, 2011 6:39 AM User is offline

Quote
Originally posted by: nighthawk4603
"back blow the condenser into a clean towel" this is with a flush product not air NOT Air correct? I can get flush in a can at Napa but like the idea of a new condenser as well. I once changed an automatic transmission and used a can of flush to clean the cooler and transmission lines before replacing the transmission. I assume this is a similar process.

Again. forgive me for my ignorant questions and thank you fin advance for your answers . Bottom line I want the system to work and if the best way for a novice to make that happen is putting in new part then I can live with that.Text

I was referring to just an air back blow to inspect for the presence of debris. You can restrict the outflow with your thumb and release (known as a "pop"). If the compressor locked up, and not the clutch; you will most likely find metal debris there.

Flushing incorrectly will often cause more problems than good. To properly clean the complex paths of the condenser and evaporator will require special tools, chemicals, high volume, high flow, and requires proper solvent removal. If all you have access to is flush in a can (poof, magic in a can); I would recommend the contaminated parts be replaced (all of them).

-------------------------


HECAT: www.hecatinc.com You support the Forum when you consider www.ackits.com for your a/c parts.

FLUSHING TECHNICAL PAPER vs2.pdf 

nighthawk4603 on Tue February 01, 2011 11:23 PM User is offline

So if the blow back doesn't yield debris then is the recommendation to still replace all components or just replace the Condenser anyway since that is the natural repository for the junk. Is it typical for debris to make it to the evaporator.

to be 100% certain replace it all. Spend the money and do it. Doe that include the rubber hoses. I'll get some quotes to see what the damages will be.

I can always go back with a bypass pully and forget ac

bohica2xo on Wed February 02, 2011 3:52 AM User is offline

The condensor is the primary filter in the system. 17 years old, probably more than 170k miles on it too. Depending on the environment it may have significant road salt corrosion or stone damage to go with the internal contamination.

The dryer is a wear item that is routinely replaced. Even if the compressor was still spinning it would be replaced. It is a 15 dollar part.

The TXV is the expansion valve. You will have to disconnect it to service the system anyway. It too is 17 years old. With moving parts & seals. 20 bucks.

The evaporator is usually protected from most debris by the dryer & TXV. It does not get stone bruises or much road salt. For 45 bucks I would not waste my time with it - your call.

The hoses should be simple units without inline mufflers. If they are just hose, inspect them carefully and clean them.

The missing oil did circulate with the refrigerant. About 10% of the refrigerant flow was actually oil. Back when that car was built it was filled with SEC PAG oil. That type of PAG is wickedly hygroscopic. Even if the system was still running with a bad leak, the old oil was due for replacement. What likely happened is that the system had a leak. It was refilled or topped off on more than one occasion. The leak was removing oil, but only fresh refrigerant was being added...

You can replace all of those parts yourself. The site sponsor - AMA or ackits.com (top right hand corner of this page) has the parts for your car at good prices. The online catalog does not list your condensor, but if you call them they have it. Last one I bought was about 120 bucks.

B.

-------------------------
"Among the many misdeeds of the British rule in India, history will look upon the act of depriving a whole nation of arms, as the blackest."
~ Mahatma Gandhi, Gandhi, An Autobiography, M. K. Gandhi, page 446.

NickD on Wed February 02, 2011 4:33 AM User is offline

Never talked about the overall condition of your car, drove my 86 Civic another four years without AC, wasn't worth fixing. Still started in sub-zero weather, engine and transmission was good with the suspension, and brakes. But the interior was badly worn and body wasn't in the best shape. Developed a brake leak, wasn't bad at first, but got another year out of it when it got worse. Couldn't even jack up the darn thing, the underbody was all rusted out. That is when I had to say goodbye to my old friend. Just felt like I was getting free mileage out of it.

But those were the days after I was mangled in an auto accident, my lovely wife divorced me the day after with a major court battle to keep my kids. Won that, was deep in debt giving her half of everything, and did survive driving with out AC. My condenser was shot, didn't do anything with it, but you mentioned getting a belt bypass kit, my clutch bearing was still good, but with complete loss of R-12, compressor wouldn't switch on anyway.

That brings about a good point, do you still have pressure in your system? And why are you talking about a belt bypass kit? Could it be that just your pulley bearing is seized? But then you said you took your compressor apart and it was clean, why was that done? Did you have pressure in the system before that was done? Is your vehicle worth fixing? Bu then you said you don't know anything about AC, good be, you did a lot more damage by not coming here first.

I don't know, never saw your car.

nighthawk4603 on Thu February 03, 2011 12:11 AM User is offline

I didn't disassemble the compressor. I got the hub off but without some kind of puller ther pulley isn't coming off.I just know that there was a lot of molten plastic around the pully and assumed it was the compressor and actually it may only be the bearing and clutch that are bad.

The bearing for certain is noisy,but the pully was turning when it was on the car.

So maybe it was just the bearing. If I slide the hub back on just a little to engage the compressor shaft. I can not turn the compressor by hand. I am sure it has to have some resistence... the compressor is supposed to have

the price of a clutch is 1/2 of the compressor.

I don't know what it is at this point.

NickD on Thu February 03, 2011 5:27 AM User is offline

As I recall, the front of the engine faced the left hand side of this car with the compressor mounted was low on the right side of the engine. Never thought that was a good idea for Honda to do, in that era, domestic vehicles mounted the compressor at the top of the engine away from road debris, mud, ice, and road salt. But apparently domestic engineers thought that was a good idea, so followed suit.

Compressor shaft should turn easily by hand, if it doesn't, its seized, even one small bind in a full rotation of the shaft tells the compressor is near the end of its life. But if you didn't take the internals of the compressor apart, how do you know it is clean?

So is your car worth putting some money into it? These cars were also known for corrosion around the TXV block, was in around 1990 Japan devalued the dollar and had to cheapen up their vehicles to remain competitive here. Thought they were great vehicles particularly in the mid 80's, but seen them being made just like our junk was.

In the 70's, their vehicles were the laughing stock of the world, so they hired a bunch of American engineers to pump our brains, I know, I was one of them for a couple of years, and Italians for styling. But a white man stands no chance in their racist world. To reduce manufacturing cost used what is called cottage assembly, moms would stay home with their baby and do a lot of that small assembly to keep costs down. Only about 10% of their work force was unionized with permanent jobs. But those cottage days came to end with even cheaper labor from other Asian countries, mostly Malaysia, the Chinese still hate the Japanese after WWII. Our leaders on the other hand gave them a huge share of our electronic business. If you think large corporations are bad in this country, don't go to Japan, greed is key as is arrogance. This country also gave them free rein to our patent office, for every ten automotive US patents, nine are from Japanese corporations. But positively impossible for a US person or a large corporation to get a patent in their country.

And now they own a huge portion of this country, but China is taking over and catching up rapidly on that lead. South Korea is another country taking away a huge portion of our jobs starting in the ship building where people in eastern Wisconsin are starving to death. A crime to see all those once busy ship building areas.

Don't mean to sound prejudice, but screw those Asians, they cost many American lives, including two of my uncles during WWII, every president we had since Nixon sold this country out, feel they are the ones that are traitors to this country, and practically all of them were draft dodgers.

Yes we have some assembly plants in this country, but they are there to take advantage of cheap American labor.

mk378 on Thu February 03, 2011 8:57 AM User is offline

With the pulley off, put the clutch plate back on the center shaft of the compressor and you should be able to turn it by hand. If not the unit has seized internally and system should be considered contaminated. If compressor is not seized, it could just be the pulley bearing that failed and there is no problem with compressor debris. But when the bearing gets that hot it is likely to damage the shaft seal in the compressor and cause a leak, so unless you want to try and redo the seal, replace the whole compressor with clutch.

JJM on Sat February 05, 2011 1:37 AM User is offline

Not saying you should ever go this route, but when the FX-15 on my '91 Cougar XR-7 failed at around 175,000 miles seemingly eons ago, all I did was replace the compressor and accumulator, add oil, pull a vacuum, and charge with R-12, and went on my grouchy way.

I was lucky because the compressor didn't suffer the typical "black death" those compressors were known for; mine had more of a "black dust" due to lack of lubrication, and the dust was only concentrated in the lower manifold which was all I flushed. I hit the compressor and lines with compressed air and not a drop of dust, oil, or anything came out. It was the middle of summer, near 100F, high humidity, and I needed A/C in a hurry and didn't care if I had to redo in a few months.

Funny when that compressor was on its way out the clutch would engage, and sometimes I'd get normal pressures, sometimes static pressure... until the hottest day of the season of course, which it was only static pressure. When I pulled the compressor apart just for giggles, it was like a giant mess of dried out junk.

The A/C was still working at 271,000 miles when I had to get rid of the car due to lack of parts, a bad tranny, and rust. But again, you should never, ever go this route, unless you plan on redoing the whole job over with new parts. I just got lucky.

Joe

When considering your next auto A/C purchase, please consider the site that supports you: www.ACKits.com

Back to Automotive Air Conditioning Forum

We've updated our forums!
Click here to visit the new forum

Archive Home

Copyright © 2016 Arizona Mobile Air Inc.