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A New Refrigerant to Superceed R134a is Coming! Pages: 12Last

Peter_Coll on Tue June 30, 2009 9:27 AM User is offlineView users profile

A new refrigerant to replace R134a in new 2011 vehicles is just around the corner. As a member of the committee making the decisions, I thought I would give you some of the current info we have. Please do not shoot the messenger and if you have constructive comments, I'll be sure to pass them on to the powers in charge. Fasten your seatbelt.....

1) The refrigerant is expected to be HFO-1234yf
2) This is a single component refrigerant not a "blend"
3) It's operating characteristics are almost identical to R134a
4) Retrofitting from R134a to HFO-1234yf will not be allowed
5) Sale of the new refrigerant is expected to be restricted to certified shops
6) The refrigerant is slightly.....yes I said SLIGHTLY flammable but please do not panic
7) New vehicles with this refrigerant will have stronger evaporators and leak sensors
8) The global warming potential is 4 compared to R134a @ 1400
9) I have been told by one Vehicle OEM that they will roll out a vehicle in the USA with the new refrigerant in July of 2011...Take this with a grain of salt as it could be sooner or later
10) The initial estimates on refrigerant cost are $20 - $40 per lb
11) Want to get some now to try out....After you sign your life away get ready to fork up a rumored $1,100 per lb. This is to keep everyone and there brother from deciding they want some and it is currently be made in a lab not a production plant.
12) Other candidates include CO2 and HFO-1243zf
13) Keep your eyes on the December Copenhagen Climate Summit the may be new global restrictions on high global warming potential refrigerants such as R134a just like we have with R12 and R22


Finally, please do not shoot the messenger and let me know if you have any questions.

TRB on Tue June 30, 2009 10:16 AM User is offlineView users profile

Thanks for posting Peter and I'll be sending you an email later as a customer posted about getting some Neutronics items shipped to the UK.

What was the difference between HFO-1234yf & HFO-1234zf?

-------------------------

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Peter_Coll on Tue June 30, 2009 10:36 AM User is offlineView users profile

In short.

1243zf is a 3 part blend while 1234yf is a single component.

Zf is from Ienos Fluor and Yf is from DuPont/Honeywell.

Zf has some catching up to do.

TRB on Tue June 30, 2009 10:39 AM User is offlineView users profile

Please no blends!!!!

-------------------------

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bohica2xo on Tue June 30, 2009 11:26 AM User is offline

Wow, that will make a new car really attractive. Added electronic garbage, restricted refrigerant, added costs...

No thanks.

I will not shoot the messenger, but who is this "committee", and why do they get to decide?

If they add complexity & cost to the MVAC system, it better outperform everything else. It will not of course, since it will be built by the same clowns that gave us the CCOT junk.

B.

-------------------------
"Among the many misdeeds of the British rule in India, history will look upon the act of depriving a whole nation of arms, as the blackest."
~ Mahatma Gandhi, Gandhi, An Autobiography, M. K. Gandhi, page 446.

Peter_Coll on Tue June 30, 2009 12:50 PM User is offlineView users profile

Quote
Originally posted by: bohica2xo
Wow, that will make a new car really attractive. Added electronic garbage, restricted refrigerant, added costs...



No thanks.



I will not shoot the messenger, but who is this "committee", and why do they get to decide?

The Committee is called the "SAE Interior Climate Control Committee". It is comprised of all of the car makers along with component and equipment manufacturers, EPA representatives and other MVAC experts. They get to decide because the European Parliament made a law that R134a could not be used in "New Vehicle Platforms" after January 1, 2011. When the car makers realized they might have to make two completely different assembly lines for Europe and the rest of the world, they decided to convert everything to meet the new laws.

When Obama was elected, it became clear that there would be a similar environmental push in the USA and the end result will be a common refrigerant worldwide.



If they add complexity & cost to the MVAC system, it better outperform everything else. It will not of course, since it will be built by the same clowns that gave us the CCOT junk.

It will cost more and be more complex


B.

daman on Tue June 30, 2009 12:50 PM User is offlineView users profile

Quote
Originally posted by: bohica2xo
Wow, that will make a new car really attractive. Added electronic garbage, restricted refrigerant, added costs...



No thanks.



I will not shoot the messenger, but who is this "committee", and why do they get to decide?



If they add complexity & cost to the MVAC system, it better outperform everything else. It will not of course, since it will be built by the same clowns that gave us the CCOT junk.



B.
I agree 110%,what a bunch of crap!!! a technicians/DIYer nightmare!!! two thumbs down on this!!!



-------------------------
'00 Pontiac Sunfire 2200 I4 SFI
'99 Chevy 4x4 Z-71 5.7 Vortec v8 CPFI
'97 Chevy 4x4 6.5 Turbo Diesel 2500
'95 Pontiac Grand Am GT 3100 v6 SFI
'88 Chevrolet Camaro IROC 5.7 TPI(49,000 original miles)

TRB on Tue June 30, 2009 1:02 PM User is offlineView users profile

People voted for a green policy and this is just another step in the process. This is for new cars only so if you don't like what these new cars have to offer no one needs to buy one. That is until the start adding taxes on to our old ones as a way to force us to buy the new POS vehicles. I'm not against a new refrigerant that fixes some of the mess the EPA created in their last attempt at a safe refrigerant. At least with this refrigerant the DIY death kits will not be produced.

-------------------------

When considering your next auto A/C purchase, please consider the site that supports you: ACkits.com
Contact: ACKits.com

torque395 on Tue June 30, 2009 1:39 PM User is offline

Should I stock up on R134a? Sam's Club has cases of 12 12 oz cans for $40 and 30# drums for $80.

-------------------------
1996 Chevy Suburban 2500 4x2 6.5L Turbo

Peter_Coll on Tue June 30, 2009 1:42 PM User is offlineView users profile

Not yet. I'll let you know if I see the price increasing significantly.

You could go spend a few sheckles with Tim.

TRB on Tue June 30, 2009 1:43 PM User is offlineView users profile

I don't see the need to go an extreme like stocking up. No one has said R134a is not going to be produced. This new refrigerant is for new cars only and will not be used for older R134a systems from what I have heard.

-------------------------

When considering your next auto A/C purchase, please consider the site that supports you: ACkits.com
Contact: ACKits.com

TRB on Tue June 30, 2009 1:44 PM User is offlineView users profile

Quote
Originally posted by: Peter_Coll
You could go spend a few sheckles with Tim.

Helps keep the forum running another year!

-------------------------
When considering your next auto A/C purchase, please consider the site that supports you: ACkits.com
Contact: ACKits.com

HECAT on Tue June 30, 2009 2:02 PM User is offline

Quote
Originally posted by: TRB
People voted for a green policy and this is just another step in the process. This is for new cars only so if you don't like what these new cars have to offer no one needs to buy one. That is until the start adding taxes on to our old ones as a way to force us to buy the new POS vehicles. I'm not against a new refrigerant that fixes some of the mess the EPA created in their last attempt at a safe refrigerant. At least with this refrigerant the DIY death kits will not be produced.

"Cash for clunkers" is a way to force people to get rid of old cars. You can just about be sure that there will be "gas guzzler" taxes coming in the near future. The Fed has got to boost new car sales as they are now a major stock holder in auto manufacturing and major indebted to the Unions. Unfortunately, I do not share the optimism that this can or will reverse or repair any of the "mess" created with a previous refrigerant change. I am sure there is an opportunity, but it will probably turn out just as ugly. I am also sure the "death kit" marketers are already working on the next generation of "new & improved" products.

Peter, No need for "flame suit" at this forum.

-------------------------


HECAT: www.hecatinc.com You support the Forum when you consider www.ackits.com for your a/c parts.

FLUSHING TECHNICAL PAPER vs2.pdf 

TRB on Tue June 30, 2009 2:07 PM User is offlineView users profile

I heard no sales of small cans. Doubt the magic in a can people are going to market a 30lbs suicide kit.

-------------------------

When considering your next auto A/C purchase, please consider the site that supports you: ACkits.com
Contact: ACKits.com

Peter_Coll on Tue June 30, 2009 2:13 PM User is offlineView users profile

I have no doubt that there will be substitutes for the substitutes available to the DIYer. What I can tell you is that a group of four wrote the new SAE J2845 Training guidelines last Friday and sent them off for approval. If approved, they set the standard for what each certification program must include for HFO-1234yf. It is far more extensive than the silly 609 certification we have today.

TRB on Tue June 30, 2009 2:20 PM User is offlineView users profile

Quote
Originally posted by: Peter_Coll
I have no doubt that there will be substitutes for the substitutes available to the DIYer.

Makes no sense to allow this alternative mess to continue! Certifications mean nothing for those which choose not to follow them. I'm all for the DIY market to have access to products! But to allow a similar mess to be created in which alternatives can be produced to replace the alternative is just the same old mess we have now!



-------------------------
When considering your next auto A/C purchase, please consider the site that supports you: ACkits.com
Contact: ACKits.com

dynamite196 on Tue June 30, 2009 2:21 PM User is offline

Quote
Originally posted by: Peter_Coll
A new refrigerant to replace R134a in new 2011 vehicles is just around the corner. As a member of the committee making the decisions, I thought I would give you some of the current info we have. Please do not shoot the messenger and if you have constructive comments, I'll be sure to pass them on to the powers in charge. Fasten your seatbelt.....



1) The refrigerant is expected to be HFO-1234yf

2) This is a single component refrigerant not a "blend"

3) It's operating characteristics are almost identical to R134a

4) Retrofitting from R134a to HFO-1234yf will not be allowed

5) Sale of the new refrigerant is expected to be restricted to certified shops

6) The refrigerant is slightly.....yes I said SLIGHTLY flammable but please do not panic

7) New vehicles with this refrigerant will have stronger evaporators and leak sensors

8) The global warming potential is 4 compared to R134a @ 1400

9) I have been told by one Vehicle OEM that they will roll out a vehicle in the USA with the new refrigerant in July of 2011...Take this with a grain of salt as it could be sooner or later

10) The initial estimates on refrigerant cost are $20 - $40 per lb

11) Want to get some now to try out....After you sign your life away get ready to fork up a rumored $1,100 per lb. This is to keep everyone and there brother from deciding they want some and it is currently be made in a lab not a production plant.

12) Other candidates include CO2 and HFO-1243zf

13) Keep your eyes on the December Copenhagen Climate Summit the may be new global restrictions on high global warming potential refrigerants such as R134a just like we have with R12 and R22





Finally, please do not shoot the messenger and let me know if you have any questions.


Under point 12 you mention CO2 being a possibility. Is that CO2 as in carbon dioxide? Seems to me that'd be the most environmentally friendly way to go. I'm no chemist so I don't know what kind of performance/usability issues are posed but if it's somewhat feasible why not?! The one problem I do see with using plain ole CO2, and it's a biggee, not much room for profit there. It's already cheap and readily available, heck with a little heavy breathing you could recharge your a/c for free!

HECAT on Tue June 30, 2009 2:22 PM User is offline

Coming soon to a store near you... Don't get ripped off by a Pro when we can do it to you at a lesser cost... "R5678diy with oil booster and leak seal"... The perfect drop in replacement for R1234yf... The DIY answer to topping off your system... Perfect for little old ladies cars and that POS you need to dump... Will work in any (R12, R134, R1234) system... You don't need a license and no need to purchase in bulky containers... Installs itself... no need to vacuum system... stops when system is full... cannot overcharge... 20 degree cooler vent temps (our results are exaggerated, and your results may vary)... absorbs moisture... saves gas... saves the planet... will not harm children or pets... Get one (make that 2) for every family member today and we will double your order!!!!

Too bad Billy is gone, I can hear him doing this. I guess we will need the "Shamwow" guy... "fetuchini, linguini, martini, bikini..."

-------------------------



HECAT: www.hecatinc.com You support the Forum when you consider www.ackits.com for your a/c parts.

FLUSHING TECHNICAL PAPER vs2.pdf 

TRB on Tue June 30, 2009 2:28 PM User is offlineView users profile

Quote
Originally posted by: HECAT
Coming soon to a store near you... Don't get ripped off by a Pro when we can do it to you at a lesser cost... "R5678diy with oil booster and leak seal"... The perfect drop in replacement for R1234yf... The DIY answer to topping off your system... Perfect for little old ladies cars and that POS you need to dump... Will work in any (R12, R134, R1234) system... You don't need a license and no need to purchase in bulky containers... Installs itself... no need to vacuum system... stops when system is full... cannot overcharge... 20 degree cooler vent temps (our results are exaggerated, and your results may vary)... absorbs moisture... saves gas... saves the planet... will not harm children or pets... Get one (make that 2) for every family member today and we will double your order!!!!



Too bad Billy is gone, I can hear him doing this. I guess we will need the "Shamwow" guy... "fetuchini, linguini, martini, bikini..."

Amen brother!



-------------------------
When considering your next auto A/C purchase, please consider the site that supports you: ACkits.com
Contact: ACKits.com

bohica2xo on Tue June 30, 2009 2:33 PM User is offline

Sad, Sad, Sad. "SAE" used to mean something to me.

Now they are just part of the "Harmonization" effort. Eurotrashing our products even more.

Looks like big business ahead for Tim. Perhaps Aftermarket A/C will become popular again - that is if you can buy a new vehicle without that crap.
Many of my associates are keeping older vehicles already because of the service issues with new stuff. I hope all of the sheeple that voted for the increased government garbage choke on the results.

B.




-------------------------
"Among the many misdeeds of the British rule in India, history will look upon the act of depriving a whole nation of arms, as the blackest."
~ Mahatma Gandhi, Gandhi, An Autobiography, M. K. Gandhi, page 446.

Peter_Coll on Tue June 30, 2009 2:40 PM User is offlineView users profile

Quote
Originally posted by: dynamite196
Quote
Originally posted by: Peter_Coll

Under point 12 you mention CO2 being a possibility. Is that CO2 as in carbon dioxide? Seems to me that'd be the most environmentally friendly way to go. I'm no chemist so I don't know what kind of performance/usability issues are posed but if it's somewhat feasible why not?! The one problem I do see with using plain ole CO2, and it's a biggee, not much room for profit there. It's already cheap and readily available, heck with a little heavy breathing you could recharge your a/c for free!

CO2 is being considered but losing steam. The 2200 PSI operating pressure, $300 - $500 in added cost per vehicle at the OEM level and the need for a secondary loop style system were drawbacks. The new gas mileage standards are kind of the straw that broke the camels back as the fuel mileage went down with a CO2 system. It's not a dead issue yet but looks to be heading that way.

bohica2xo on Tue June 30, 2009 2:58 PM User is offline


Quote
Originally posted by: HECAT
Coming soon to a store near you... Don't get ripped off by a Pro when we can do it to you at a lesser cost... "R5678diy with oil booster and leak seal"... The perfect drop in replacement for R1234yf... The DIY answer to topping off your system... Perfect for little old ladies cars and that POS you need to dump... Will work in any (R12, R134, R1234) system... You don't need a license and no need to purchase in bulky containers... Installs itself... no need to vacuum system... stops when system is full... cannot overcharge... 20 degree cooler vent temps (our results are exaggerated, and your results may vary)... absorbs moisture... saves gas... saves the planet... will not harm children or pets... Get one (make that 2) for every family member today and we will double your order!!!!



Too bad Billy is gone, I can hear him doing this. I guess we will need the "Shamwow" guy... "fetuchini, linguini, martini, bikini..."

Hecat:

Thanks for the chuckle - I needed that this morning. I just got back from dropping my wife's Genital Motors vehicle off at the dealership. They informed me that they had already transfered ALL of their warranty parts to another dealership 40 miles away, and that today was the last day they could do any work on her Saturn. Tomorrow they are a Kia dealership. Now that Saturn has been sold, that car is a total orphan. With a Honda driveline, other GM labels will not touch it - and neither will Honda.

I can just see the coming service issues with the new refrigerant. The "leak detector" will be some sort of silicon electroschmuck junk with a .002 cost of production, and a 200.00 replacment cost. Every time Grandpa rides in the passenger seat with too much cologne on, the sensor will detect a "leak" and shut down the A/C. Resetting will require a Tech XXIVXXII scanner, available only at select dealers.

B.



-------------------------
"Among the many misdeeds of the British rule in India, history will look upon the act of depriving a whole nation of arms, as the blackest."
~ Mahatma Gandhi, Gandhi, An Autobiography, M. K. Gandhi, page 446.

Peter_Coll on Tue June 30, 2009 3:34 PM User is offlineView users profile

Quote
Originally posted by: bohica2xo
Sad, Sad, Sad. "SAE" used to mean something to me.



Now they are just part of the "Harmonization" effort. Eurotrashing our products even more.



Looks like big business ahead for Tim. Perhaps Aftermarket A/C will become popular again - that is if you can buy a new vehicle without that crap.

Many of my associates are keeping older vehicles already because of the service issues with new stuff. I hope all of the sheeple that voted for the increased government garbage choke on the results.



B.

Take it easy on the SAE folks. If they had said NO, we will not participate in any standards, then the bureaucrats in Washington would be making all the decisions for us. Unfortunately, the European car market is bigger than the USA market now. I am aware that in a perfect world we would still be using R12 but times change and the SAE volunteers are trying to do what is best given the parameters we have to work in.


Hang in there, the sky is not going to fall in........yet.......lol

Peter_Coll on Tue June 30, 2009 3:35 PM User is offlineView users profile

Quote
Originally posted by: TRB
I heard no sales of small cans. Doubt the magic in a can people are going to market a 30lbs suicide kit.

You are correct on the no small cans of HFO-1234yf. Our fear is that someone creates a blend and we have an R12 situation again.

Peter_Coll on Tue June 30, 2009 3:40 PM User is offlineView users profile

Quote
Originally posted by: bohica2xo
Quote
Originally posted by: HECAT

Hecat:



Thanks for the chuckle - I needed that this morning. I just got back from dropping my wife's Genital Motors vehicle off at the dealership. They informed me that they had already transfered ALL of their warranty parts to another dealership 40 miles away, and that today was the last day they could do any work on her Saturn. Tomorrow they are a Kia dealership. Now that Saturn has been sold, that car is a total orphan. With a Honda driveline, other GM labels will not touch it - and neither will Honda.



I can just see the coming service issues with the new refrigerant. The "leak detector" will be some sort of silicon electroschmuck junk with a .002 cost of production, and a 200.00 replacment cost. Every time Grandpa rides in the passenger seat with too much cologne on, the sensor will detect a "leak" and shut down the A/C. Resetting will require a Tech XXIVXXII scanner, available only at select dealers.



B.


That is always a possibility but it will more likely be a pressure sensor to monitor the evaporator. A little less likely to false trigger on Grandpa's cologne.

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