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Arthur Little's research on HC's Pages: 12

pippo on Sat October 18, 2008 9:09 AM User is offline

Anyone know more on A Little's research results on HC referigerants that is being referenced by some HC websites as proof (not poof) that HC is not as dangerous as some believe?

Thanks!

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beware of the arrival

retrofit on Sat October 18, 2008 1:36 PM User is offline

I think you are looking for the Arthur D. Little Group. They are a management consulting firm which from my limited experience with such, will tell the customer what they want to hear (for a price). This firm may be objective and accurate in their conclusion

Quote
Research by International risk assessment engineers, the Arthur D. Little Group indicates an extremely low risk to motor vehicle occupants from accidental release of hydrocarbon refrigerant. but there are other opinions that do not agree.

TRB on Sat October 18, 2008 1:38 PM User is offlineView users profile

It's flammable and always will be! Proponents are going to feed you the safe and secure line all day. It's not approved for use in the US by any vehicle manufacture! That's the bottom line and if you want to buy into the HC hype please find another forum to post its praises.

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When considering your next auto A/C purchase, please consider the site that supports you: ACkits.com
Contact: ACKits.com

Karl Hofmann on Sat October 18, 2008 3:31 PM User is offlineView users profile

Well Bugger me!!!!!

Now I know why my barby wont light and cook my food..... Artur D whatzit says that propane and butane doesn't burn...... Och Jim, Ya cannae change the laws of physics (Or chemistry for that matter)

Unfortunately there are plenty of stupid people who will believe marketing men over common sense if they think that they can save a few pennies

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Never knock on deaths door... Ring the doorbell and run away, death really hates that!

Karl Hofmann on Sat October 18, 2008 3:42 PM User is offlineView users profile

The article refers to domestic refrigerators which are firstly designed to use HC refrigerant and secondly in the event of a refrigerant escape, the volume of refrigerant to the volume of the room would render the refrigerant outside of the combustible concentration....... this no longer applies in automotive applications



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Never knock on deaths door... Ring the doorbell and run away, death really hates that!

TRB on Sat October 18, 2008 3:45 PM User is offlineView users profile

These guys demoed the HC refrigerant!





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When considering your next auto A/C purchase, please consider the site that supports you: ACkits.com
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TRB on Sat October 18, 2008 3:54 PM User is offlineView users profile

Quote
Originally posted by: Karl Hofmann
Well Bugger me!!!!!

Now I know why my barby wont light and cook my food

Great no steaks at Karl's place.



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When considering your next auto A/C purchase, please consider the site that supports you: ACkits.com
Contact: ACKits.com

Karl Hofmann on Sun October 19, 2008 5:13 PM User is offlineView users profile

Quote
Originally posted by: TRB
Quote
Originally posted by: Karl Hofmann
Well Bugger me!!!!!



Now I know why my barby wont light and cook my food



Great no steaks at Karl's place.

Ha! If only I had some steaks to cook.... I'm eating gruel here, times is hard.....



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Never knock on deaths door... Ring the doorbell and run away, death really hates that!

TRB on Sun October 19, 2008 6:11 PM User is offlineView users profile

Where is Kofi when you need him Karl?

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When considering your next auto A/C purchase, please consider the site that supports you: ACkits.com
Contact: ACKits.com

Karl Hofmann on Sun October 19, 2008 8:13 PM User is offlineView users profile

Quote
Originally posted by: TRB
Where is Kofi when you need him Karl?

Last seen sharing a trough with George and Tony

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Never knock on deaths door... Ring the doorbell and run away, death really hates that!

pippo on Wed October 22, 2008 7:54 PM User is offline

So the makers of the video is from a higher source than Little, huh?? Hmmmm.....

Little will tell one anything for a price, huh??

If that was r134a, the guy, I understand , would not have come out alive at all, having been sprayed with HF fumes.

BTW, that stunt , with the half pint of "blood" looks like it had some help from a good film student from FSU or USC (sorry NYU, you guys are mostly in artsy independent films, with less blood/gore.....LOL)

I respectfully disagree with your approach to this, although, I am not in total disagreement with your position that thereare risks with this stuff.

Do yous believe a car is a safe thing to be in in the first place? Of course not. For now, I think the risks are low, as thousands and thousands ofcars are using HC right now. So, how many law suits has Duracool had til now?

Thanks for your input, guys. The search goes on for data.........


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beware of the arrival

Matt L on Thu October 23, 2008 12:45 AM User is offline

The fact remains that your MVAC system was not designed for HCs.

Certainly, MVAC systems could be designed to run on any gas that can be easily compressed to a liquid. But face it, yours was not. Even the makers of the HC refrigerants acknowledge this indirectly. Theirs are all blends, and that would not be required if your system were designed for a particular HC.

You will note that I am not addressing any risk issue, other than the risk to the parts of your AC system. Blends fractionate, and give wrong pressures when they do. That can cause compressor damage. How often do you suppose that you should evacuate and recharge, to ensure that the blend stays at the correct ratio? Do you have a plan?

HECAT on Thu October 23, 2008 6:25 AM User is offline

French fry oil will run in your diesel and steroids will run in your body; but they come with a price, and that is usually a long term negative effect to the operating system. The flammability and other risks are the easiest way to offer a caution to the unweary installer, that is buying into the marketing hype (HC's, sealers, etc.), and is considering the use of a product that they have no clue about how it works.

The more experience installer will understand more about the risks involved with the fractionating of a non-azeotrope refrigerant and how this will change the temperature relationship characteristics, as well as limit recovery and top off options. Also, how this will affect oil migration; which already is the root cause of 70% of compressor failures.

There has been tons of global research being done by the OE's on the next generation refrigerant as a replacement for R134a (looks like HFO-1234). I wonder why they have not picked up on this HC stuff with all its "fix all" claims. By all means please continue with your research and experimentations and there are plenty of forums for such "Einsteins" to gather. No disrespect intended for I like to think outside the box also. For the most part, we here will steer clear of offering experimental solutions, and will continue to offer proven, proper, and industry accepted repair techniques.

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HECAT: www.hecatinc.com You support the Forum when you consider www.ackits.com for your a/c parts.

FLUSHING TECHNICAL PAPER vs2.pdf 

TRB on Thu October 23, 2008 10:42 AM User is offlineView users profile

Well stated gentlemen!

Many may think we are anti HC, which is really not true. This is a forum based on providing the best possible advice and correct procedures to repair an auto a/c system. This includes making note of hazardous and marketing gimmicks provided in this wonderful arena called the Internet.

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When considering your next auto A/C purchase, please consider the site that supports you: ACkits.com
Contact: ACKits.com

mk378 on Thu October 23, 2008 10:45 AM User is offline

It's absurd to suggest that the video is a fake. The guy was a proponent of HC's. He was confident it would be OK because he had done the demonstration before without the gas burning. In science, it is worthwhile to repeat experiments, especially when they had a result that science does not predict.

No one was expecting the car to explode. Some of the people who were in the car sued him for their real injuries afterwards.

Edited: Thu October 23, 2008 at 10:47 AM by mk378

TRB on Thu October 23, 2008 11:18 AM User is offlineView users profile

Quote
Originally posted by: mk378
It's absurd to suggest that the video is a fake. The guy was a proponent of HC's. He was confident it would be OK because he had done the demonstration before without the gas burning. In science, it is worthwhile to repeat experiments, especially when they had a result that science does not predict.

No one was expecting the car to explode. Some of the people who were in the car sued him for their real injuries afterwards.

I remember reading the entire article on this and you are correct, it's not a fake or staged event. They were proponents of the use of HC refrigerants. Here is another link for those truly searching for data!!!!

http://www.vasa.org.au/pdf/memberlibrary/hydrocarbons/hc_white_paper.pdf

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When considering your next auto A/C purchase, please consider the site that supports you: ACkits.com
Contact: ACKits.com

JJM on Sun October 26, 2008 12:07 AM User is offline

HC's are indeed excellent refrigerants, but so too were ammonia (R-717), sulfur dioxide (R-764), and methyl chloride (R-40). Problem is, they ended up killing people, which was why safe and efficient CFC refrigerants were developed. If it wasn't for the anti-progress vermin who hate progress and people for that matter, there would be no need to pursue HC's and even other refrigerants such as CO2, despite CO2 being blamed for global warming.

These scum won't be happy until were forced to do without air conditioning and refrigerant altogether, all in the name of saving the planet. If there's any doubt, look at how successful they've been in banning DDT and the millions that have suffered and died as result, all in the name of some sick narcissistic derangement that we can somehow control the destiny of the planet.

Instead of spending resources trying to reinvent an invention that has long ago been perfected, we should be trying to find cures for diseases that actually does kill people.

There was nothing wrong with R-12. There is nothing wrong with R-134a. Look at the label under your hood and use what your system was designed for, and be done with it. Stop with the nonsense - there's no need for any research or data to confirm that HC's will burn or go boom if ignited.

Joe

P.S. It will only get worse, much worse, under an Obama presidency, not that McCain is much better.

TRB on Sun October 26, 2008 12:28 AM User is offlineView users profile

I do agree with you on this Joe. Just read this and thought is this his how he will handle a world leader that questions him?

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Barack Obama's campaign killed all interviews with a Florida TV station after Sen. Joe Biden, the Democratic vice presidential nominee, faced tough and critical questions from a reporter at the Orlando station, the Orlando Sentinel reported .

During a satellite video Thursday, WFTV's Barbara West quoted Karl Marx and asked Biden how Obama's comment to "Joe the Plumber," about spreading the wealth wasn't being Marxist.

"Are you joking?," Biden asked.

West replied, "No."

Later in the interview West questioned Biden about his comments that if Obama wins the election next month, he would be tested early on as president and wanted to know if Biden was implying America was no longer the world's leading power.

"I don't know who's writing your questions," Biden asked her.

The Obama camp then killed a WFTV interview with Biden's wife Jill, according to an Orlando Sentinel blog.

"This cancellation is non-negotiable, and further opportunities for your station to interview with this campaign are unlikely, at best for the duration of the remaining days until the election," wrote Laura K. McGinnis, Central Florida communications director for the Obama campaign, according to the Sentinel.



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When considering your next auto A/C purchase, please consider the site that supports you: ACkits.com
Contact: ACKits.com


Edited: Sun October 26, 2008 at 12:29 AM by TRB

Karl Hofmann on Sun October 26, 2008 3:49 AM User is offlineView users profile

Quote
Originally posted by: pippo
So the makers of the video is from a higher source than Little, huh?? Hmmmm.....



Little will tell one anything for a price, huh??



If that was r134a, the guy, I understand , would not have come out alive at all, having been sprayed with HF fumes.



BTW, that stunt , with the half pint of "blood" looks like it had some help from a good film student from FSU or USC (sorry NYU, you guys are mostly in artsy independent films, with less blood/gore.....LOL)



I respectfully disagree with your approach to this, although, I am not in total disagreement with your position that thereare risks with this stuff.



Do yous believe a car is a safe thing to be in in the first place? Of course not. For now, I think the risks are low, as thousands and thousands ofcars are using HC right now. So, how many law suits has Duracool had til now?



Thanks for your input, guys. The search goes on for data.........

So you are saying that HC refrigerants aren't flammable?



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Never knock on deaths door... Ring the doorbell and run away, death really hates that!

retrofit on Sun October 26, 2008 12:47 PM User is offline

Quote
Originally posted by: pippo


Little will tell one anything for a price, huh??

Thanks for your input, guys. The search goes on for data.........

In your quest for data, keep in mind what Mark Twain said: "There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies and statistics."

What exactly is an extremely low risk to vehicle occupants? There is an extremely low risk that any refrigerant of any type would be released into the passenger compartment during a collision. Facts can be used to prove either side of an argument.

Consulting firms are rarely hired to provide objective answers. Maybe Little is unique but look for the source of funding for the study before taking it at face value.

Edited: Sun October 26, 2008 at 12:54 PM by retrofit

bohica2xo on Sun October 26, 2008 1:16 PM User is offline

Quote
Originally posted by: retrofit






Consulting firms are rarely hired to provide objective answers. Maybe Little is unique but look for the source of funding for the study before taking it at face value.


Well said. I turn down plenty of work when the person hiring me has an outcome already mapped out. "I just need you to tell me this will work" - is something I hear too often.

B.


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"Among the many misdeeds of the British rule in India, history will look upon the act of depriving a whole nation of arms, as the blackest."
~ Mahatma Gandhi, Gandhi, An Autobiography, M. K. Gandhi, page 446.

pippo on Wed October 29, 2008 6:17 PM User is offline

Quote
Originally posted by: Karl Hofmann
Quote
Originally posted by: pippo
So the makers of the video is from a higher source than Little, huh?? Hmmmm.....







Little will tell one anything for a price, huh??







If that was r134a, the guy, I understand , would not have come out alive at all, having been sprayed with HF fumes.







BTW, that stunt , with the half pint of "blood" looks like it had some help from a good film student from FSU or USC (sorry NYU, you guys are mostly in artsy independent films, with less blood/gore.....LOL)







I respectfully disagree with your approach to this, although, I am not in total disagreement with your position that thereare risks with this stuff.







Do yous believe a car is a safe thing to be in in the first place? Of course not. For now, I think the risks are low, as thousands and thousands ofcars are using HC right now. So, how many law suits has Duracool had til now?







Thanks for your input, guys. The search goes on for data.........



So you are saying that HC refrigerants aren't flammable?

No, but flammability in itself is not the end all issue.....risk is. That means one compares risk with other risks one takes every day when entering an automobile. HC and gasoline both are flammable, but both have different risks. You guys even know R134a has risks too......I dont get it. This HC gas has pine scent (instead of the normal mercaptans aded to LP gas), that is one indicator of a leak. You smel pine, anyone? Get out of the car quick LOL!!

Of course, I dont smoke at all. Dont have friends who smoke either. Besides, ittakes more than a cigarette ember to ignite the HC. And, Im sure you tech people know HC needs a very NARROW percent range of HC: Oxygen ratio to be flammable......something like 2.5%-6%(?). Outside this range, it will not catch fire, no matter what.

Azeotropes? Ive heard of this term back in Chem classes. But not my field now. BUT, Freeze 12 should have the same probem with circulating oil ideally, no?




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beware of the arrival

Chick on Wed October 29, 2008 7:48 PM User is offlineView users profile

it has it's own problems which is why AC techs "would not" use Freeze 12, there are presently two auto ac refrigerants used by "true" Ac techs, R12 and R134a, that keeps your parts warranty intact, is used in the auto makers systems, why use anything else?? I don't even see the need to use anything else, nor would I waste my time learning about "ALL" the different refrigerants out there, after all they all claim to be the best, and in this industry you need the dedicated recovery and charging equipment for whatever you use..I can see a shop that uses ALL of the different blends so filled with equipment that they would have no room left for the cars they service..I guess this is one horse that just won't die.. As a diy'er you can use whatever you want, but don't try to push it on those who do it for a living..It's been tried, and your not going to get us to use anything other than what the cars are designed for until the new refrigerant rolls off the assembly lines, then we will learn as much as we can about THAT refrigerant..

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Chick
Email: Chick

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Freedoms just another word for nothing left to lose

bohica2xo on Thu October 30, 2008 2:09 AM User is offline

Quote
Originally posted by: pippo



No, but flammability in itself is not the end all issue.....risk is. That means one compares risk with other risks one takes every day when entering an automobile. HC and gasoline both are flammable, but both have different risks. You guys even know R134a has risks too......I dont get it. This HC gas has pine scent (instead of the normal mercaptans aded to LP gas), that is one indicator of a leak. You smel pine, anyone? Get out of the car quick LOL!!



Of course, I dont smoke at all. Dont have friends who smoke either. Besides, ittakes more than a cigarette ember to ignite the HC. And, Im sure you tech people know HC needs a very NARROW percent range of HC: Oxygen ratio to be flammable......something like 2.5%-6%(?). Outside this range, it will not catch fire, no matter what.



You must be higher than SnoopDog to believe the crap you type.

Pine Scent? Sure, never smelled that in a car before:



There is a reason the rest of the LPG industry uses mercaptans - they do not smell like anything you might otherwise encounter. The smoke & mirrors HC refrigerant vendors chose a pleasant pine smell instead...


You really believe that you have no source of ignition in your car because you do not smoke? How about the brushes in the very blower that forces the air across the evaporator? Or the half-dozen relays & switches in or under the dash? The power window switches & motors? Power seat motors & switches?

Sounds more & more like you are trying to sell the stuff.

B.

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"Among the many misdeeds of the British rule in India, history will look upon the act of depriving a whole nation of arms, as the blackest."
~ Mahatma Gandhi, Gandhi, An Autobiography, M. K. Gandhi, page 446.

pippo on Thu October 30, 2008 7:06 PM User is offline

Bohemian, mohican, or whatever your name is, I find your reply belittling /insulting. using words like crap, etc, innuendos like "selling the stuff". No need for it. I am purposefully trying to invite debate, if you caught on at all to that.......

The reason Mercaptans are not used is not cuz they "dont smell like anything else'. Up north, where skunks are found, driving by a dead one, that smell is quite familiar to ANY driver. It's actually a dead giveaway (no pun!!!). You may already know that skunks glands emit the puky smelly compound mercaptoethanol.

Mercaptans are used because that compound has one of the lowest detection limits to the human nose of just about any other known/practical organic compound.



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beware of the arrival

Edited: Thu October 30, 2008 at 7:15 PM by pippo

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