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Oil lost

uunfews on Thu August 28, 2008 4:45 PM User is offline

Year: 2001
Make: Honda
Model: Civic
Engine Size: 1.7
Refrigerant Type: 134a
Country of Origin: United States

How much oil gets lost when refrigerant is being discharged/recovered by those commercial evacuation machine ?
That way I know how much to put back into the system.

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Newbie wanting to learn how to fix his 01 Civic AC in this freaking hot Dallas TX area.

mk378 on Thu August 28, 2008 5:14 PM User is offline

An inconsequential amount. Taking refrigerant slowly off of the top of the line doesn't draw much if any oil with it.

uunfews on Thu August 28, 2008 11:41 PM User is offline

Quote
Originally posted by: mk378
An inconsequential amount. Taking refrigerant slowly off of the top of the line doesn't draw much if any oil with it.

How slow is slow ? And what do you mean taking it off the top of the line?

Thanks

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Newbie wanting to learn how to fix his 01 Civic AC in this freaking hot Dallas TX area.

HECAT on Fri August 29, 2008 9:29 AM User is offline

Depends on the machine. If it initially pulls some liquid rapidly then it will remove a little oil and this will stop when it changes over to pulling gas. If it pulls slowly (all gas) it will not remove any oil at all. Experienced machine users will look at what is ejected into the recovery machine's waste oil bottle (that is if it is a recycling recovery machine) to answer your question. My testing on this topic yielded that this oil ejected is mostly from this job but some of it is from the vehicle serviced before.

There is no dipstick for refrigerant oil and adding back what is removed with recovery and a few ounces for this component and few for that part are just educated estimates (guessing). No doubt it works, but if there is any debris present; it becomes very risky and highly unlikely that your repair is going to last. To be sure of how much oil to add back, clean the system to DRY bare metal, and install the proper amount of fresh oil; no guessing. If there is debris in your system, you will wish you did.

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HECAT: www.hecatinc.com You support the Forum when you consider www.ackits.com for your a/c parts.

FLUSHING TECHNICAL PAPER vs2.pdf 

uunfews on Sat August 30, 2008 9:29 AM User is offline

Quote
Originally posted by: HECAT
Depends on the machine. If it initially pulls some liquid rapidly then it will remove a little oil and this will stop when it changes over to pulling gas. If it pulls slowly (all gas) it will not remove any oil at all. Experienced machine users will look at what is ejected into the recovery machine's waste oil bottle (that is if it is a recycling recovery machine) to answer your question. My testing on this topic yielded that this oil ejected is mostly from this job but some of it is from the vehicle serviced before.



There is no dipstick for refrigerant oil and adding back what is removed with recovery and a few ounces for this component and few for that part are just educated estimates (guessing). No doubt it works, but if there is any debris present; it becomes very risky and highly unlikely that your repair is going to last. To be sure of how much oil to add back, clean the system to DRY bare metal, and install the proper amount of fresh oil; no guessing. If there is debris in your system, you will wish you did.


From your personal experience then what is the average, the minimum, and the maximum you have seen gets lost when doing a refrigerant recovery from the low side? And the high side?

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Newbie wanting to learn how to fix his 01 Civic AC in this freaking hot Dallas TX area.

TRB on Sat August 30, 2008 11:13 AM User is offlineView users profile

We might see 10 ounces a year and we reclaim a fair amount of vehicles over the year. Don't think I could even measure a per vehicle amount!!

-------------------------

When considering your next auto A/C purchase, please consider the site that supports you: ACkits.com
Contact: ACKits.com

HECAT on Sun August 31, 2008 7:35 AM User is offline

Quote
Originally posted by: uunfews[/ib]From your personal experience then what is the average, the minimum, and the maximum you have seen gets lost when doing a refrigerant recovery from the low side? And the high side?

My testing was not to determine "how much" and considering the number of different machines, vehicles, and the many variables; this would be an extensive test just to determine some consistent trends. I was testing the performance of the recycling method for refrigerant purity and found the method tested to perform very well and the purity of the refrigerant is high, but the recycling process tends to leave some oils behind in the ejection process; and this remainder is ejected with the the oil removed in the next service cycle. It is my opinion that measuring or knowing "how much" was removed by this equipment is moot.



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HECAT: www.hecatinc.com You support the Forum when you consider www.ackits.com for your a/c parts.

FLUSHING TECHNICAL PAPER vs2.pdf 

chris142 on Sun August 31, 2008 11:10 AM User is offline

Quote
Originally posted by: TRB
We might see 10 ounces a year and we reclaim a fair amount of vehicles over the year. Don't think I could even measure a per vehicle amount!! WOW! My Robinair 34700Z(I think thats the #) will pull 2-6oz out of each car.

I had a customer over charge a Freightliner with oil and it pulled out over 12oz on the 1st pull. It over filled the waste oil container lol.

HECAT on Mon September 01, 2008 7:48 AM User is offline

That's the difference in equipment. If put side by side on similar systems; I am sure you would see the Robinair evacuate a system faster, pull more liquid, and thus more oils than the machine AMA uses.

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HECAT: www.hecatinc.com You support the Forum when you consider www.ackits.com for your a/c parts.

FLUSHING TECHNICAL PAPER vs2.pdf 

TRB on Mon September 01, 2008 12:29 PM User is offlineView users profile

I'll talk with the guys in the shop and see if they are seeing more oil pulled these days. But back when I was working in the shop. I would never see 2 ounces of oil pulled from a vehicle when I reclaimed the refrigerant.

-------------------------

When considering your next auto A/C purchase, please consider the site that supports you: ACkits.com
Contact: ACKits.com

iceman2555 on Tue September 02, 2008 8:06 AM User is offlineView users profile

When one actually reads the instruction manual for a recovery machine, it will state that the inspection of the oil recovery bottle is a part of the recovery process. This recovery process will normally remove a minimal amount of lubricant....1-2 oz is considered normal. If an excessive amount of lubricant is being recovered, this may be an indication of a possible lubricant over charge.
Also, be aware of the location of service ports. A modern recovery machine recovers from both ports. On some vehicles with the ports very close to or actually on the compressor body, it is possible to completely remove an oil charge from a compressor. This is most important in a true service procedure....recovery/evac/recharge....this amount of lubricant should be added back to the compressor prior to start up to prevent possible compressor damage due to lack of lubricant.

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The strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government.
Thomas Jefferson



Edited: Tue September 02, 2008 at 8:07 AM by iceman2555

HECAT on Tue September 02, 2008 9:34 AM User is offline

Please excuse the sarcasm, but that is amazing! With ports located high, ports located low, possibly sucking oil from compressors, ambient temps, underhood temps, different system volumes, and pre-separators to protect from sealers; a R&R machine may still be able to tell if the system is overcharged or undercharged with oil by the 1-2 ounces ejected into the waste oil bottle. I am surprised the instructions don't tell you to look at the oil removed to evaluate quality (regardless that the oil has been through filtering and an internal distillation process), and then take this waste container and dump it back into the system.

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HECAT: www.hecatinc.com You support the Forum when you consider www.ackits.com for your a/c parts.

FLUSHING TECHNICAL PAPER vs2.pdf 


Edited: Tue September 02, 2008 at 9:35 AM by HECAT

iceman2555 on Tue September 02, 2008 10:42 AM User is offlineView users profile

Understand...esp considering the source of this extreme sarcasm.......!!!
Never was to concerned with the high's and low's....but always monitored the amount of refrigerant recovered during a process....a bit of CYA......and of course, that amount should be added back to the system....system service only. If greater amounts were removed...the service changed drastically.....was this extra amount a result of an overcharged system....or simply an over aggressive recovery process. The fact was that at this point...how to determine if the system is properly charged with lube. The only true method as to open the system, flush completely, and add the correct type and amount of lubricant back into the system...evac and recharge.
Back in the day when Everco contributed to my very expensive up keep, and were supplying rec/rech equipment...many different 'test' were performed to determine exactly what occurred during the recovery process, esp relative to lubricant. What resulted was an 'average' recovery of app 1-2 oz per recovery. This made little difference...txv...CCOT.....liquid line...suction line...accumulator connections....the amount remained constant. Test were conducted with the engine/AC operational....non operational...hot engine...cold engine....heating the accumulator/drier....heck..had to have something to do!!!
When an additional amount (over charge) of lubricant was added to the system...the system operated to distribute lubricant.....the recovery process would normally remove additional amounts of lube. To throw a wrench into the fray....this was not always the case....just a simply observation.
Since some compressors/application had service ports on the compressor....or very close to the manifold...what was observed....that the recovery process could actually remove lubricant from the compressor.
The only true and positive method to determine the correct amount of lubricant.....is of course.....get it all out and start afresh. Realistically, how many seasoned techs have this approach......compared to the number of seasoned techs that will add a 'couple' ounces to every A/C service. With the lube cap of some modern systems...this 'couple' of oz is actually a 50% over charge.
Karl, have that contact info...think I'll call SCS today...maybe get one of the 'upper level' guys...determine if they have a contact for 'ice'.


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The strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government.
Thomas Jefferson

HECAT on Tue September 02, 2008 2:08 PM User is offline

Quote
Originally posted by: iceman2555
Understand...esp considering the source of this extreme sarcasm.......!!!

...how to determine if the system is properly charged with lube. The only true method as to open the system, flush completely, and add the correct type and amount of lubricant back into the system...evac and recharge.

The only true and positive method to determine the correct amount of lubricant.....is of course.....get it all out and start afresh. Realistically, how many seasoned techs have this approach......compared to the number of seasoned techs that will add a 'couple' ounces to every A/C service. With the lube cap of some modern systems...this 'couple' of oz is actually a 50% over charge.

Thanks for confirming the ONLY way to know.

Where else in automotive repair, is the WAG considered professional service? Would you want to pay a $1000.00 or more to have your A/C repaired and have the tech shrug his shoulders ("I dunno"), when asked how much oil is in there?

It's crazy like.... doing a head gasket replacement... don't' worry about the debris dropping in the crankcase, it will be caught by the filter.... don't worry about coolant in the crankcase, it will evaporate when engine heats up... just add back 1/2 qt of oil to replace what was lost when the heads were removed.

Breathin' into the bag... I'm OK now....

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HECAT: www.hecatinc.com You support the Forum when you consider www.ackits.com for your a/c parts.

FLUSHING TECHNICAL PAPER vs2.pdf 

iceman2555 on Tue September 02, 2008 9:20 PM User is offlineView users profile

Considering the WAG.....I assume that is the same as the SWAG.....and the comment about the techs and the $1000.00 repair.....ahem...you forget what my job description is.....heck, I get those calls all day long....every day....morning till evening....remember where I am and where CA is......and when the travel goes the other way.....learned long ago to shut the damn cell phone off prior to 'nitie-nite'
Seriously, should be recording some of these calls......and not surprising the lube issue is right up there......flush...heck..my mamma taught me to flush after each use.....yeah right....and then the one about not evac'ing a system....heck...just hook all the connections together...except for one...then....hit the recharge button....wait till a good flow of refrigerant exits both connectors...and then slap the darn things together......hopefully this was stated in jest....but then....or the other....a tech needed a recharge machine with a charge pressure to exceed 425 psi.......why one would ask.....well....of course to charge all those vehicles that only have a service port on the liquid line or high side......yep...ya guessed it....he thinks the car has to be running/AC engage to charge......and one wonders...well....I shall keep that last thought to myself....
Ya'll have fun out there.....I sure am!!!!

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The strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government.
Thomas Jefferson

uunfews on Wed September 03, 2008 10:34 AM User is offline

All this discussion (great discussion by the way) left me really wondering about the ability of a tech to give me proper advice so I can do proper work. I have talked to several techs about doing an freeon evacuation so I can do the repair work afteward myself then have the tech do the recharge after. Some said the amount of oil take out is negilible such that I shouldn't have to worry about adding it back in . Some said it will take out some but the amount is unknown until evac is completed. And some said it can be alot like some of you have mentioned here. Adding onto the confusion is the fact of trapped oil from previous evacuation I read here somewhere. So how do I go about sorting all this out???? Help!

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Newbie wanting to learn how to fix his 01 Civic AC in this freaking hot Dallas TX area.

TRB on Wed September 03, 2008 10:43 AM User is offlineView users profile

I confirmed with one of our mechanics this morning when reclaiming with our RTI and Mastercool machines. There is no traceable amount of oil removed from the system do to the process of reclaiming.

-------------------------

When considering your next auto A/C purchase, please consider the site that supports you: ACkits.com
Contact: ACKits.com

HECAT on Wed September 03, 2008 2:22 PM User is offline

Quote
Originally posted by: uunfews
All this discussion (great discussion by the way) left me really wondering about the ability of a tech to give me proper advice so I can do proper work. I have talked to several techs about doing an freeon evacuation so I can do the repair work afteward myself then have the tech do the recharge after. Some said the amount of oil take out is negilible such that I shouldn't have to worry about adding it back in . Some said it will take out some but the amount is unknown until evac is completed. And some said it can be alot like some of you have mentioned here. Adding onto the confusion is the fact of trapped oil from previous evacuation I read here somewhere. So how do I go about sorting all this out???? Help!

The answers you are getting are correct; some, a little, a lot, and none.

Some oil can be added back to compensate for loss, and this is done with experienced estimates and at times without any thinking.

So how do you sort it out? You can go with a guess; or the only way to know for sure is to flush it all out and start with the correct OE recommended type and quantity.

I added to the confusion with the topic of "previous oil". This was a oil separation test I had done to determine if the amount removed and the amount ejected into the waste oil bottle is the same. To eliminate confusion, it is very close (but not perfect).

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HECAT: www.hecatinc.com You support the Forum when you consider www.ackits.com for your a/c parts.

FLUSHING TECHNICAL PAPER vs2.pdf 

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