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HC's, Envirosafe and POA Valves Pages: 12

nova72 on Wed April 23, 2008 7:42 AM User is offline

Hi, has anyone had any experience charging older GM AC POA valve systems with HC's such as Envirosafe? I know it's important to monitor vent temps and pressures when charging with HC's but with the POA valve holding the low side to 30 PSI, what should I look for when charging the system? Thanks!

powerflite on Wed April 23, 2008 1:01 PM User is offline

I have tried it but I haven't had much luck with Envirosafe in an R12 system. On the other hand, I have used their Industrial 12a with great success in several types of systems, including POA. In a POA system with Industrial 12a, the trick is to get the POA valve adjusted for good cooling without freezing up. I have done it by trial and error. It is a PIA to set the POA if you don't know what pressure you are shooting for. The PT curves from Envirosafe for the Industrial 12a aren't much help.

mk378 on Wed April 23, 2008 1:40 PM User is offline

It's a nonazeotropic blend (apparent from the instructions on the cylinder which direct the hapless user to charge it as a liquid only). That means that evaporator pressure and temperature aren't going to be related by a single point. Not going to work well in a system that is designed to control temperature via pressure.

Most of the USA states have a state law making it illegal to use flammable gas as a refrigerant in cars. Just doesn't seem like a good idea regardless.

oznznut on Wed April 23, 2008 6:34 PM User is offline

Wondering why you prefer not to use 12 or 134a. Lots of info on POA systems in the archives of this site.

Dave

nova72 on Thu April 24, 2008 8:40 AM User is offline

I'm considering the Envirosafe Industrial 12a as an alternative to R12 in a POA system I need to open to replace a hose on. The only real reason for not using R12 is cost and availability. I don't want to use R134a unless I have to.

oznznut on Thu April 24, 2008 11:43 AM User is offline

Just looking at the p/t chart for envirosafe. 30 psig will give you an evaporator temp around 17F, sure to cause freeze-up. I assume that you are planning to adjust the POA valve accordingly.

nova72 on Thu May 01, 2008 10:03 AM User is offline

For powerflite, what low side pressure do you find works best after adjusting the POA? Thanks!

iceman2555 on Thu May 01, 2008 10:53 PM User is offlineView users profile

From EnviroSafe web/msds:

Fire and Explosion Hazard: Flammable vapor may form if allowed to mix with air. Accumulation of gas is an ignition hazard. Vapors
are heavier than air and may travel to an ignition source.

Who in their right mind would put this crap in a mobile A/C system.....?? Then some poor sucker works on this POS at a later date...unsuspecting the refrigerant.....recovers....contaminates his refrigerant....then recharges another system...contaminates that system....it fails....he gets busted for contaminating a system...the FEDs make a case....he pays a fine....probably very steep......all for what....gimme a break.

Then reading farther along on the web....says it is not necessary to evac the system....think they said 'zero evac'....so lets see....some air in the system....a flammable chemical introduced into an air laden system....some operational pressures....maybe a shaft seal leaking......a clutch slips...a bit of sparking from metal to metal contact.....ahhh...there maybe justice after all.......

Good luck with the repair.....love to see it in my shop some day.....we test for leaks with a butane lighter!!!!

-------------------------
The strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government.
Thomas Jefferson

TRB on Fri May 02, 2008 12:05 AM User is offlineView users profile

We can't let this post slide by without the video.

-------------------------

When considering your next auto A/C purchase, please consider the site that supports you: ACkits.com
Contact: ACKits.com

nova72 on Fri May 02, 2008 8:39 AM User is offline

Quote
Originally posted by: iceman2555
From EnviroSafe web/msds:



Fire and Explosion Hazard: Flammable vapor may form if allowed to mix with air. Accumulation of gas is an ignition hazard. Vapors

are heavier than air and may travel to an ignition source.



Who in their right mind would put this crap in a mobile A/C system.....?? Then some poor sucker works on this POS at a later date...unsuspecting the refrigerant.....recovers....contaminates his refrigerant....then recharges another system...contaminates that system....it fails....he gets busted for contaminating a system...the FEDs make a case....he pays a fine....probably very steep......all for what....gimme a break.



Then reading farther along on the web....says it is not necessary to evac the system....think they said 'zero evac'....so lets see....some air in the system....a flammable chemical introduced into an air laden system....some operational pressures....maybe a shaft seal leaking......a clutch slips...a bit of sparking from metal to metal contact.....ahhh...there maybe justice after all.......



Good luck with the repair.....love to see it in my shop some day.....we test for leaks with a butane lighter!!!!

Sounds like what your are describing is gasoline in a fuel tank. Flammable vapor may form if allowed to mix with air. Accumulation of gas is an ignition hazard. Vapors are heavier than air and may travel to an ignition source.

No A/C professional would check for leaks with a butane lighter.

When I do the service work on the car, I take the responsibility. I would never take the car to a shop and expect someone else to service the A/C system since the changes I have done make it non standard.



HECAT on Fri May 02, 2008 9:29 AM User is offline

Quote
Originally posted by: nova72Sounds like what your are describing is gasoline in a fuel tank. Flammable vapor may form if allowed to mix with air. Accumulation of gas is an ignition hazard. Vapors are heavier than air and may travel to an ignition source.



No A/C professional would check for leaks with a butane lighter.



When I do the service work on the car, I take the responsibility. I would never take the car to a shop and expect someone else to service the A/C system since the changes I have done make it non standard.


A fuel system is designed from day one with the necessary features and safety factors to handle the flammable fuel. The A/C system is not, and you are exposing yourself and your passengers to unnecessary dangers. Your analogy does not work.

Never heard of a Halide Torch? A halide torch is an inexpensive leak detector that is fast and reliable, but can only be used to detect chlorinated refrigerants. It can be used to detect leaks as small as ½ ounce per year. A halide torch works on the principle that air is drawn over a copper element heated by a hydrocarbon fuel. If halogenated refrigerant vapors are present, the flame changes from a blue to a bluish green color.

Warnings should not be taken as negative, and you have the right to do as you wish. Professional advice is only offered to warn against the use of "junk marketing" products, by pointing out the unfortunate lessons learned. Did you watch the video?


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HECAT: www.hecatinc.com You support the Forum when you consider www.ackits.com for your a/c parts.

FLUSHING TECHNICAL PAPER vs2.pdf 

iceman2555 on Fri May 02, 2008 9:40 AM User is offlineView users profile

Actually, the idea of checking for leaks is an attempt at humor....esp for those vehicles having HC refrigerants.

The statement about gas in a fuel tank.....just what do you think HC refrigerants are...a blend of propane and butane.....PLGs......heck why spend the dollars at envirosafe...simply take the vehicle down to the local 'bar-b-que' gas supplier and fill'er up. May take a while getting the correct blend...but what the heck...you take responsibility correct.

The changes you make make it not standard...they make it illegal !!!!! The upside...perhaps 'big brother' will swoop down from the sky and apprehend you while accomplishing this dastardly event....understand the penlites can be quite severe in some states.

As for as being a pro......I question that each and everyday.....should have listened to my 'Mom' ....stay in dental school.....you will make lots of cash...get to work with lots of good looking women (assistants) and retire early. Always have a very clean and cool office in which to ply your trade.
Here is sit today...greasy fingers (well sometimes) work with old dirty smelly men with extremely foul mouths and bad breath to boot. Make very little cash....and must spend large amounts of that on equipment that will protect me from those that make their vehicles 'non-standard' by adding, often, illegal things to their vehicles....and....whoops..forgot to tellya it has a 'different' refrigerant......

Also consider the fact that the evap is a major source of leaks in an A/C system......and inside the evap case/air box is a blower motor......these motors normally produce some 'arching'....just maybe......some day......a leaking evap.....a high flammable substance (HC-12a (industrial or not) being leaked into the air box...... power is being supplied to the blower motor....arching occurs....and hey...what is that funny smell....and then.....auto ignition of the highly flammable substance in the vehicle....can't wait to read about that one.

But what the heck....envirosafe states that they have a perfect record of product liability.......maybe your vehicle will be first....one never knows.

The real question...is why.....134a works in 99% of all retros and when done properly it works very well......of course there are some situations where it may not...but all in all...it works great. The cost fact is less....it can be recovered and used over and over.....it does not present a legal issue for use.....the list goes on and on.......

But then.....you could be a 'plant' from the HC industry simply trying to 'pull our chain'.......it happens from time to time......and if that is the case, sir...it is my sincere desire to see the web site changed from a perfect record of product liability to ...opps....there was this one time when...."

My question still stands...why would any sane person introduce this substance into their vehicle......?

-------------------------
The strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government.
Thomas Jefferson

iceman2555 on Fri May 02, 2008 9:56 AM User is offlineView users profile

Well said 'HECAT'!!!

Hey you mean they really make one of them thar torches.....ya mean idont have to hold a penny with maw vicegrips and use the zippo.....well...ill be dern.....what will they thing of next.......glory.....no more burnt fingers....but then.....does work well to thaw them out when they freeze from all that 'freon' being let go cause some knuckhead but some weird stuff in the ac.......gotta find a new way to hold that little metal thing down.......gets cold as heck on maw fingers......esp since 'bubba' died......you know he had a problem......yeah down there.....comes from sniffing too much 134a....you know the 'mountain oysters' get the cancer and well.....poor bubba...just could not stand the idea.......but drinking all that 'antifreeze'.....but he was a forward thinker....knew that stuff would keep him from rottin' in his grave....saved the widow bunchs on the burial expenses.......

Hey, ya'll have fun out there today.....I sure am.....Gotta go.....need to explain to someone that compressor CAN NOT make
too much pressure !!!!


-------------------------
The strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government.
Thomas Jefferson

nova72 on Fri May 02, 2008 12:34 PM User is offline

Hi, My original post was intended to obtain information from an engineering and design standpoint. I am well aware of the risks associated with HC's, the marketing hype and the junk that's available out there. That's what investigation and risk assessment is for. The pro's and con's of using HC's have been hashed out before i"m sure in this and other forums. I'm not going to argue that.

However, I would not consider statements to the effect of hoping to do my self in or that big brother should pick me up, professional advice and would have expected better from a professional forum.

If I offended anyone by asking questions, my apologies...

"

TRB on Fri May 02, 2008 1:05 PM User is offlineView users profile

Considering the nature of these products. I believe you got appropriate responses from the professionals. Sorry the responses were not what you wanted to here! But HC refrigerants are banned in many US states! Most auto a/c professionals are not going to even mess with it. My personal opinion is these responses were perfect for the future reader looking for answers and not sales hype.

-------------------------

When considering your next auto A/C purchase, please consider the site that supports you: ACkits.com
Contact: ACKits.com

HECAT on Fri May 02, 2008 1:50 PM User is offline

From an engineering and design standpoint; the use of HC's in currently produced systems has been determined to be dangerous (i.e. do yourself in) and illegal (i.e. big brother pick you up). However, if you wish to engineer and design a system capable of using HC's that is safe and legal by meeting the EPA and OEM requirements; I am sure this can be done for the difference in price of HC's and 134a.

Check out the "Automotive Air Conditioning Procedure" page and see what MACS and the EPA have to say regarding HC's.

I don't speak for this forum provider, but some of us "professionals" may be just making light of another HC post, as we have repeatedly been giving "professional" advice against the use of such dangerous (i.e. do yourself in) and illegal (i.e. big brother pick you up) products for years.

Sorry but my "professional" opinion is to first laugh when HC conversation comes up.

Did you not see that 5 of the 6 responding posters are senior members here and one is the forum provider? I would bet if you tried your question on another "professional" forum; you could also find yourself "professionally" ridiculed. Then you can also tell those "professionals" that they don't know what they are talking about.

No offense taken, no offense intended.




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HECAT: www.hecatinc.com You support the Forum when you consider www.ackits.com for your a/c parts.

FLUSHING TECHNICAL PAPER vs2.pdf 

bohica2xo on Fri May 02, 2008 2:45 PM User is offline

I have no problem with HC's in some applications. I probably have more experience with HC's than most of the people here. I currently have a little chiller running about 450 lbs of R290, and it has been doing well. It is also more than 100 yards from any occupied structure... My personal flushing system uses R600 (I can see HECAT turning purple from here! LOL, kidding), and it works great - not a system for beginners however.

Having said all of that, the only refrigerant I would use in a POA system is R12 with mineral oil. The valves were built & calibrated for that combination, and there is no reason to change anything. R12 is still available (unless you live in Canada), and the entire system was designed for it.

The glide associated with EnviroSkunk makes it difficult to predict how a 30 year old POA valve will react, and unless you plan to recover & throw away 25 pounds of HC's fooling around with the system you may never get it working as well as it did with R12. At EnviroSkunk's prices, you will be money ahead to go R12.

B.

-------------------------
"Among the many misdeeds of the British rule in India, history will look upon the act of depriving a whole nation of arms, as the blackest."
~ Mahatma Gandhi, Gandhi, An Autobiography, M. K. Gandhi, page 446.

Karl Hofmann on Fri May 02, 2008 3:19 PM User is offlineView users profile

Iceman, I do believe that you are developing a sense of humour

As has been said, HCs have their place in refrigeration but cars are not a good place to go since the system is not designed to contain flammables When the car manufacturers design a system that is safe to be used with HCs then that is fine by me but back yard tinkering is not engineering

How do ya like your Australian, mate? Fried or roast, complete with a crispy coating.

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Never knock on deaths door... Ring the doorbell and run away, death really hates that!

bohica2xo on Fri May 02, 2008 3:26 PM User is offline

Karl:

As I recall the brits have a spec for HC's in commercial refrigeration in occupied spaces. A ratio of Cubic metres of structure volume to Grams of refrigerant if my memory is correct.

Based on that spec, how much HC can he install in the average 4 cubic metre US land lacht?

B.

-------------------------
"Among the many misdeeds of the British rule in India, history will look upon the act of depriving a whole nation of arms, as the blackest."
~ Mahatma Gandhi, Gandhi, An Autobiography, M. K. Gandhi, page 446.

Karl Hofmann on Fri May 02, 2008 4:14 PM User is offlineView users profile

Bohica, I'm afraid that I'm not sure what the recommended ratio is for flammable refrigerants since we require a license to use HC refrigerants so I don't get involved in a small but specialised market.. but from my domestic heating gas work, Propane has a lower explosion limit of 2% and an upper limit of 10% in air and Butane has a LEL of 1.8% and a UEL of 9% so anything between 0.08 and 0.4 cubic meters of Propane should see that land yacht off nicely

-------------------------
Never knock on deaths door... Ring the doorbell and run away, death really hates that!

Edited: Fri May 02, 2008 at 4:15 PM by Karl Hofmann

HECAT on Fri May 02, 2008 5:23 PM User is offline

Quote
Originally posted by: bohica2xo
My personal flushing system uses R600 (I can see HECAT turning purple from here! LOL, kidding), and it works great - not a system for beginners however.

B.


Nah, no purple here, it works for you. Remember, no smoking when flushing! LOL


-------------------------


HECAT: www.hecatinc.com You support the Forum when you consider www.ackits.com for your a/c parts.

FLUSHING TECHNICAL PAPER vs2.pdf 

bohica2xo on Sat May 03, 2008 12:43 AM User is offline

Hecat:
I have never smoked, but some claim it wafts from my collar when agitated... Are the sparks from the chop saw ok?


Karl:

Took me a minute, but I found it.

BS EN378 Part 1

"...room size should be such that a sudden loss of refrigerant shall not raise the
mean concentration in the room above 0.008 kg / metre cubed."

"Concentration test per IEC 60335-2-24"


So if I did my math right, that is about 1.128 ounces of HC refrigerant in a 4 cubic metre land yacht. Should cool great - as long as it is parked in Curchill MB in January.


B.

-------------------------
"Among the many misdeeds of the British rule in India, history will look upon the act of depriving a whole nation of arms, as the blackest."
~ Mahatma Gandhi, Gandhi, An Autobiography, M. K. Gandhi, page 446.

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