Automotive Air Conditioning Information Forum (Archives)

jim2259 on Sun October 07, 2007 4:09 PM

Year: 96
Make: Pontiac
Model: Bonneville
Engine Size: 3800

1996 Bonneville compressor V5 Shaft Seal

Does anyone have a photo of a correctly installed, double lip Front Shaft Seal (ACD# 15-30948), V5 compressor; that they can post.

I installed one and after installing, the double lip seal appears to be slightly raised toward the front of the compressor particularly on one side of the shaft seal. The raised portion is still within the outer steel case rim.

The installed shaft seal is not indented and sloping in toward the rear of the compressor as it looks when it comes new out of the package.

I used a shaft seal protector on install.

Have not had system recharged yet.

Thanks



Jim


Edited: Sun October 07, 2007 at 10:35 PM by jim2259

GM Tech on Mon October 08, 2007 8:59 AM

Below is a photo of a single lip seal before removal- you should be able to read manufacturer data- imprinted on the seal retainer surface- also the lip should be uniform around the shaft- and no unusual protrusions- use of refrigerant oil on installation helps to not invert the seal- I coat the insertion tool and shaft protector with a thin coat of oil prior to installation....If the seal is in upsidedown- there is no way to use a seal puiller to remove it- you need to be able to grip (expand) on the inner diameter of the seal to pull it out- also I tend to turn the seal slighty as I insert it- to help make sure it seats properly.....just my thoughts



-------------------------
The number one A/C diagnostic tool there is- is to know how much refrigerant is in the system- this can only be done by recovering and weighing the refrigerant!!
Just a thought.... 65% of A/C failures in my 3200 car diagnostic database (GM vehicles) are due to loss of refrigerant due to a leak......

jim2259 on Tue October 09, 2007 4:38 PM

Thank you for the very timely photo and suggestions.

Very helpful.

Jim

Rick Johnson on Fri December 14, 2007 7:11 PM

GM Tech or the CorvairGeek,

I am also interested in installing a double lip seal (ACD15-30948) into my A6 (1967 Pontiac) with a stock ceramic seal.

I can not find anyone in Los Angeles aware of this seal's use in an A6, so I am on my own. I noticed the picture above is described as a Single Lip Seal. Does the single lip seal look exactly like a double lip seal?

What tools do I need to remove the ceramic seal and replace it with a double lip seal?

Has anyone every done a pictorial on this swap?

I want to buy everything from this site's host 'AC kits', but I would like to know exactly what I need to buy. Sorry but when I asked them in the past I got the impression that I was supposed to know what I needed - so here I am trying to figure it out.

This is the first time I have actually seen a post by someone who has done the swap to double lip.

Thanks for your help,

CorvairGeek on Fri December 14, 2007 9:31 PM

The same tools (as long as you have an SAE clutch plate remover/installer, not metric) will work with the A6 compressor and style seals. I have done these as well as R4s with the ceramic seal. Make sure you pull the lower "bird cage" out after you remove the ceramic seal (it is no longer needed). That is the only thing different when changing the style of seal. It will be sealed better with the double lip than they ever were new. GM tech has stated that the double lip seal isn't officially recommended for the ceramic seal replacement, but I don't know why anyone would want to install the older designs now.

Sorry, I don't have any pictures.

It is kind of tricky getting the first couple seals in without damage. I fully concur with rotating the seal while inserting it, especially as a DIY myself.

GM Tech may elaborate further with any other hints/tips, or if I misstated anything.

-------------------------
Jerry

TRB on Fri December 14, 2007 9:51 PM

Mastercool deleted their tool break down page on their new site. Never liked it before but it's going to make things even harder to determine which tools for each compressors. I'll just say but the master kit but that defeats the purpose of trying to save a few bucks.

RJ, if you actually spoke to our staff and felt pushed off a little. I do apologize for for that. It's just very difficult to try and cover every single idea that pops up on the internet. Sure we have double lip seals and compressor tools. Knowing which exact ones a individual may need is not as easy as it sounds.

-------------------------

Chick on Fri December 14, 2007 11:10 PM

We will have to get the part numbers for the 'bird cage" removal tool, and clutch hub removal tool. Don't have them at home. But in the meantime, here is a pretty good post by Mitch, a departed and missed member of the forum. He shows a pic and explains where the double lipped seal will go. Otherwise it's pretty straight foward. Don't know why mastercool knocked off the compressor tool list from there site, but Tim is right, it's gone... I have most of the tools needed at work, and I'll try to get the numbers and pics tomorrow..Hope this helps..

-------------------------
Chick
Email: Chick

---------------------------------------------

Freedoms just another word for nothing left to lose

Chick on Sat December 15, 2007 7:15 AM

Also, the Double lipped seal is shown in this post with Ackits.com part number and I use thesze seals without a problem. The part numbers on the bottom of the post are what you need as far as the seal remomoval tool, snap ring plyers, shaft seal protector, all you need are the numbers for the clutch hub removal tool (Same as R4 I believe) and installer tool, and the cage removal tool. The procedure is "basically" the same as shown though...Hope this helps.

-------------------------
Chick
Email: Chick

---------------------------------------------

Freedoms just another word for nothing left to lose

TRB on Sat December 15, 2007 5:36 PM

Chick I'll see if Jeff at Mastercool can dig out an old PDF we can use.

-------------------------

Chick on Sat December 15, 2007 5:51 PM

That would be a good idea Tim. Here's what I got so far....


The seal removal tool and this is the tool to remove the 'cage" under the ceramic seal...


And here is a couple pics of the Clutch hub pullers needed with the Mastercool part numbers...



If I have time Monday, I will pull an A6 apart and take photos of putting the double liped seal in..Never did an A6 compressor seal, but it should be pretty straight foward....

-------------------------
Chick
Email: Chick

---------------------------------------------

Freedoms just another word for nothing left to lose

TRB on Sat December 15, 2007 5:59 PM

I have done many A6 shaft seals. Walk in the park for a guy with your skills.

-------------------------

Chick on Sat December 15, 2007 6:09 PM

ARGG....Then where are the Pics dude....
Anyway we have an old A6 laying around that used to be used as an air pump on one of the wreckers, I'll pull that one apart..Not going to waste a "new" front double lipped seal on it, but should have an old one laying around.. I really only started doing front shaft seals a couple years ago when GM tech began telling us how the double liped seal worked much better than the old single liped seal..I have to say, I agree.. Took a few to get the hang of it, but really not bad at all.. I also forgot to add that your (AMA) part number for the GM double lipped seal is "21-34734" should anyone want to save a few bucks over GM prices... I have no complaints with them..

-------------------------
Chick
Email: Chick

---------------------------------------------

Freedoms just another word for nothing left to lose

GM Tech on Sun December 16, 2007 1:02 PM

The reason the double lip seal (or its predecessor the single lip) were never recommended for a ceramic seal replacement is that no one ever thought of it- or tested it- as far as I'm concerned--- I looked at all the dimensions on R-4, V-5, H-6, and A-6 shaft seals - including shaft diameter, front head o-ring and snap ring grooves and heights of grooves- and they were all identical-- so why not try the double lip seals??? no one could give me a reason not to-- so about 10 years ago I tried 5 or 6 A-6 applications-- worked great- stayed dry outside-- so I still do it today.....I still have not seen it written as a validated replacement seal or procedure-- but I do it anyway....I see it mostly on classic car restorations now-- where the owner wishes to dry-up his messy oil slinging A-6 (or old style R-4). Just my opinion.....

-------------------------
The number one A/C diagnostic tool there is- is to know how much refrigerant is in the system- this can only be done by recovering and weighing the refrigerant!!
Just a thought.... 65% of A/C failures in my 3200 car diagnostic database (GM vehicles) are due to loss of refrigerant due to a leak......

Rick Johnson on Sun December 16, 2007 10:27 PM

Thanks, I am very excited. After 2 rebuilt and one supposedly brand new compressor, I can't wait to try to fix the darn front seal leak that I have struggled with for at least 5 years.

Although I am a decent DIY'er, I still like all the help I can get. I saw the procedural post in this thread and think I get the procedure.
Three questions;
They did not show or discuss the 'bird cage' removal or show the tool.?
Bending the key for retention to the clutch plate makes sense, but why stick it out 1/4" beyond the hub and which direction; towards the compressor or away from the compressor?
How do you prepare/clean the shaft in the area where the lip of the seal will rub?

I want to buy from ACKits; this is what I think I need so far. Hopefully ACKits or one of you guys could fill in the blanks:

Description, Qty, part number, price
dbl lip seal, 2, AMA 21-34734,
O-ring for seal, 2,
Snap ring for seal, 2,
Bird cage removal tool, 1,
Ceramic Seal removal tool, 1,
Dbl lip seal instal/remove tool, 1
Shaft seal protector, 1,
Clutch removal tool, 1, 90454,
Clutch installation tool, 1, 90458,

Thanks again - hopefully we can make this post, the end all post, on using the double lip seal in an A6!

GM Tech on Mon December 17, 2007 9:11 AM

The clutch key needs to protrude out of the clutch driver on the compressor side about halfway- so that your clutch installer tool has room to grab as many threads as possible on the shaft- plus you can't completely seat a bent key by hand- until it is forced into place during the installation process.

To clean the internal snout and shaft areas- I have always used something that evaporates quickly-- like rubbing alcohol or methanol and small tissues- and a hook tool (dental pick).

The bird cage removal tool slips in behind the "cage" then rotate it slightly to grasp it and simply pull it out-- it is mounted on the shaft and rotates with the shaft (on the flats)

-------------------------
The number one A/C diagnostic tool there is- is to know how much refrigerant is in the system- this can only be done by recovering and weighing the refrigerant!!
Just a thought.... 65% of A/C failures in my 3200 car diagnostic database (GM vehicles) are due to loss of refrigerant due to a leak......

NickD on Mon December 17, 2007 11:03 AM

It's just a minor annoyance where the shaft keyway slot lets you jam the key into the seal, whether old or new, plus you need special tools for removing and installing the hub.

There are vehicles where you just need a 12 mm socket to remove the hub, with your hand, and add or take away a shim for proper gap adjustment and you don't have to change the seal. Probably why our host drives a Toyota. That is yet another solution to this hub seal problem.

Chick on Mon December 17, 2007 2:28 PM

The picture on this thread shows the porclen seal removal tool. The red handled tool is the bird cage removal tool.. The porclen shaft seal has like a mushroom top to it where that "black" tool that looks like prongs goes over then the sleeve puts tension on it so you can remove it.. To work with Double lipped seals you also need the seal/removal tool shown below with the seal, O ring and snap ring.

I outlined the ceramic "seal lip" in red so you'll get an idea on how the tool grabs under the lip to pull the seal out..Hope this helps..
PS; unable to do it pictorially today, as I had to take the day off...Sorry.

Tools for double lipped seal,


Red outlined ceramic seal lip


-------------------------
Chick
Email: Chick

---------------------------------------------

Freedoms just another word for nothing left to lose

Chick on Mon December 17, 2007 2:31 PM

PS: It is also called the seal seat that has to removed first and that is where the double lipped seal will go,

-------------------------
Chick
Email: Chick

---------------------------------------------

Freedoms just another word for nothing left to lose

TRB on Mon December 17, 2007 3:48 PM

Jeff came though for us.

Mastercool Compressor Tool Chart (PDF file)

-------------------------

Chick on Sat December 22, 2007 7:53 PM

Ok, I "finally" got to change that two piece ceramic seal on an A6 compressor. If you want to see the pics, Click here and also heck the post linked to it and you should not have a problem. It went as easy as GM tech said it would, and I have no doubts that it will work just fine. Hope this helps..

-------------------------
Chick
Email: Chick

---------------------------------------------

Freedoms just another word for nothing left to lose

CorvairGeek on Sat December 22, 2007 8:28 PM

Very nice! I wish I had such a reference when I started changing these for myself and friends.

As a DIY, I've found Q-Tips/cotton swabs work very nicely for cleaning inside the shaft/shaft seal area.

-------------------------
Jerry

CorvairGeek on Sat December 22, 2007 8:32 PM

And what was all that horrible redish stuff around the shaft nut? We don't have that in the desert. Is it from installing a fine compressor on a Ford product?

-------------------------
Jerry

Chick on Sat December 22, 2007 8:39 PM

No that is actually "very common" road salt slag from the "northeast"... Sometimes it's so bad that you have to soak the threads in WD40 for a while, and use a pick to clean the threads or you'll never get the removal tool on.. Check the other thread on GM shaft seal removals.. That was another "common" Northeast compressor....There are benefits to living in dry climates....

-------------------------
Chick
Email: Chick

---------------------------------------------

Freedoms just another word for nothing left to lose

CorvairGeek on Sat December 22, 2007 10:21 PM

I don't miss that stuff. I can't believe how bad things look when I'm back east, and I even grew up with it. I'm unemployed and still am doing everything in my power to not have to relocate from Boise.

-------------------------
Jerry

Rick Johnson on Wed January 02, 2008 4:02 PM

Just wanted to thank you all for helping with this post. Additionally, for any newbie wanting to make this seal change himself (like me), you should consider buying the Mastercool "Master Seal Set" tool set # 91268. This set has everything required to remove/install the clutch and remove the original ceramic seal parts and install the new lip seal. Although the set costs 323 dollars from AC Kits, we tried to piece together all the individual tools and besides not being able to find all the tools shown in the thread above, it was also approaching the same price for the tools that we could find.